The FASTBOAT Patch page.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I have to wonder if Don had an alternate motive in having me look into the J-20?

Nope.....no at all

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

THIS IS NOT FOR THE UPCOMING PATCH!! If you give me the green light I'll continue my work here.

I may be able to generate a list with every aircraft with EW > 5 but I've got a busy day ahead

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I shot expert again earlier today so, I intend to enjoy the rest of this "bonus" evening at home with CINCLANTHOME.

Very good.

.

[Suhiir]

In general the F-35 has TWO EW ratings, one when clean (internal load only) and another dirty (external load).

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Yes but, we're talking for what maybe less than 30s to launch/drop it's weapons. If those RCS numbers are even close (Based on models tested in labs of outside organizations.) those differences are huge. I'm trying to get the "whole picture" looked at here as much as possible. By example how can s GRIPEN have a EW 6 with what is known about them. The first version JS-39A yes-maybe. The GRIPEN NG absolutely not. I just pointed out the other issue that ties into this. I'm not trying to make it perfect just maybe a little better is all.

Russia within a couple of years will have a player against the threat with the 500 Series SAM and the 400 later mods that are slowly coming onto the field shortly. NATO will have MEADS, PATRIOT PAC3+ etc.

Anyway more graphics...

First up some examples of 3rd GEN Jets for context...
Of course the picture is too big so...
Israeli KFIR/Sweden SAAB 37 VIGGAN "THUNDERBOLT"/USA F-4 PHANTHOM II/China CHENGDU J-7 "FISHBED" (MiG-21)/USA F-4A/B FREEDOM FIGHTER/France MIRAGE F1 and Russia MiG-21 "FISHBED".

Now please note these don't take into account known updates to aircraft shown or newer known information casting doubt on a small number shown. I mostly by posting these wanted to show the complexities in dealing with these GEN destinations. All combined present a more complete understanding of the issues I'm looking at. For instance the F-22 last one of these shows a RED block now GREEN by current available data.




The last two posts were meant to provide a general overview of the issues I'm looking at. I'll offer one more example from Russia. The best operational frontline fighter they have operating at this moment is the Su-35 (This by the way is the fighter chosen for mass production over the PAF FA/T-50 due to it's operational and financial difficulties. They have or soon will have, 12 operational for IOP in a Squadron.), it's EW is rated @ 10. The MiG-29SM EW is rated @ 9. And I hope some of you are paying attention to this because the Su-100 is rated at 0!?!

Anyway, I've had my fun for the night!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Pat. I just sent you an email with attachments to your hotmail account.


Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Data received with many thanks!! Don has indicated the task will involve 1750 UNITS. I will the issues I raised have been accepted to include the higher EW ratings for the F-22 and B-2 bomber. That's the steel-reinforced "glass ceiling" because as these systems get better so do the SAM's as already noted.

I know someone will raise this issue so let me squash it now, SEAD aircraft are purpose built to go in ahead of everyone else. They by definition will have a higher EW rating then the fighter version of the same plane. They trade space for more advanced electronics with the trade off to some measure being weapons capacity and vice versa.

Most aircraft in the game now I feel are where they should particularly of the 60's, 70's and early 80's. However the data received will allow for a further review without a deep time commitment.

And I've just been reminded it's time to hit the shower.

THANKS AGAIN Don!!

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

I'd say your biggest problem is going to be cross-referencing the EW ratings of various AA weapons against aircraft. In almost all cases it's going to be a judgement call on superior/equal/inferior because virtually no solid data is available.

As a baseline I'd look at the air campaign over North Vietnam during the 60's and early 70s. Keeping in mind the NVA gear was probably Soviet Export quality so probably 1 point (maybe 2?) lower then what the CCCP used during the same period and the USAF/USN was top-of-the-line.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To demonstrate I'm on it.

Legend of Abbreviations...
MF-Missiles Fired/AC-Aircraft Claimed/AL-Actual Losses and MPAK-Missiles Per Aircraft Kill

1. SA-2 COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS - VIETNAM 1965 - 1973

1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 Total
MF 109 590 1894 376 16 23 136 2032 72 5248

AC 87 186 411 96 2 2 32 415 62 1293

AL 13 3 61 12 0 1 7 72 3 203

MPKA 8.4 17.3 31 31 (-) 23 19 28 24 26(Avg.)

Sources: DOD and Center for Naval Analyses

2. Weapons Causing All Aircraft Losses
AAA 31%/Small Arms Fire 45%/SAM 9%/MiG 4%/Fratricide 1%/Other/UnKn 10%

Source: Center for Naval Analyses

3. Wild Weasel Losses by Cause 1956 - 1973
AAA 38%/MiG 18%/SAM 38%/Other 6%

Sources: Howard Plunkett Database and Center for Naval Analyses

Note: AAA includes Radar equipped as well.

The above are open source materials. However it would be unfair of me not to say these are also referenced in a absolutely wonderful book...
THE HUNTER KILLERS by DAN HAMPTON Lt.Col. USAF Ret. Credited with 151 Combat Missions with among his other awards, received 4 DFC's with Valor. He also wrote VIPER PILOT.

The book is about how they started, weapons and technologies used about the pilots and the Vietnam War each section has a "time period" actual mission (You felt like you were in the cockpit with them.) which added flavor to the points made. Many of the surviving pilots and operators are a part of the story or have contributed to it.

Hopefully that's my CYA above.

I was going to post this in the XXX Thread but got side tracked with my Patch Submission Post, sorry, but here it is.

Those were 3rd GEN planes with similar GEN missiles and you see above who the main killer was.

Though it needs to be understood, though, it only provides a baseline to start from and not a means to an end.

I think you'll find our SAM's are running fairly close or slightly better then the numbers above. We still have SAM's to come the Russian S-500 for instance.

But PAT we have 5th GEN fighters but what about 4th GEN or 5th GEN SAM Systems? And I would respectfully disagree with you. We do have them already 4th GEN S-300/400, 4th GEN ++ S-400 latest version and 5th GEN is harder, for now though the S-500/MEADS/PATRIOT PAC-3++ so they're here and I believe working fine.

I'm only tweaking and making some correction as I pointed in one of my last posts for instance the GRIPEN and disparities between the Su-35 EW 10 while the MiG-29SM has a EW 9. I haven't settled my "tiering" process but, the Su-35 should have a EW 14 but that's still up for evaluation. Some might be submitted to have a lower EW rating.

I asked for F-22 and B-2 to be raised so my number blocks will allow for expansion if you will i.e. 4th GEN Fighters is broken as 4th GEN/4th GEN+/4th GEN++ and some sources have 4th GEN+++.

Let's assume I find I'm looking at all four break downs for 4th GEN jets and I represent them (EW) as 1, 2, 3, and 4, well that's where the work is.

So using the HORNET, the A/B would be a 1/C/D 2/E/F 3 and E/F w/AESA and IRST a 4.

The tiers would allow a jet like the PAK-FA to cross to a 5th GEN lower tier later if certain issues are upgraded etc. for that plane.

I'm not trying to make this hard on myself, Don or Andy. Apparently my reasons for this as I have already posted, have if nothing else, at least peaked their curiosity to see what direction this takes.

I'll copy all this over to the Jets/Planes Thread so everyone have a "crack at it" but I'll be doing this independently, I'll never get it done by committee. My next step is to establish the tiers (#'s) and assign the GEN's to them. I'll post them when done.

Need some sleep now - Good Night Everyone.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Patch Post #2 for the 2017/2018 Campaign

This is a simple supplement of mostly just DATE CHANGES with one EW change as noted below. I hope you can accommodate them. However the subject matters aren't, as you'll read below. Most of these deal with my favorite two OOB's India and Turkey. Enough said here about them.

CHANGES

JETS PLANES BUT NO UAVS HERE.

C5. USA/UNIT 921/F-35A/EW 12// This would match the others grouped with it (Currently at EW 9) and I believe this was the only one I could find with this difference. Submitting here in case it was "lost" from Post #212.

MBT’s

C3. TURKEY/UNIT 614/ALTAY/START DATE JAN 2019// Well I believe this will be the 3rd or 4th time I've submitted a change to this tank since I first submitted it. You can apply the last statement to the ARJUN below as well.

So to ALTAY a brief synopsis, had contract issues, technical issues finally they got worked out, then in 2016 as the program was just starting to come around, they had severe political issues with Austria which dealt a serious blow to the program. The issue was "human rights" based forcing Austria (And Germany in the background.) to back out of the Engine and Power packs they were to supply etc.

This set up an indigenous competition to development the same for the ALTAY the winner was just announced this past week, as I eluded to in my last MBT post I believe. Quote is taken from ref. 1.

"In the Altay serial production race BMC will be competing with FNSS and Otokar, the maker of Altay’s prototypes. Procurement sources say the government’s final decision on the multibillion-dollar serial production contract will likely come later in 2018."

I do expect this to slip, just "the nature of the beast" I guess. Because as you can see I'm only allowing 1 yr. from production to FOC+.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/febr...nous_tank.html
https://www.defensenews.com/industry...-expectations/
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...project-05012/

This last ONLY for context, because I just know someone will read it and get overly excited. Please note the date of it and remember what you read above. This clearly should demonstrate how easy it is to derail a program and the need to follow up on them. I said years ago and I believe some might remember this, when the game was set to expire in 2020, I felt we'd be lucky to see these 3 tanks in the game based on what I was tracking with them. Here it's 2018 and look where we're at with the ALTAY, ARJUN Mk II and ARMATA. All 3 are game changers in RL, we should all be thanking Andy and Don for giving us the extension so these can get in.
https://thediplomat.com/2016/04/good...ss-production/

C4. INDIA/UNIT 021/ARJUN Mk 1+/START DATE JAN 2020.// Recommend you put this in a status for scenario purposes and taken out of normal game playing status. To me that's all just "PFM" (Might get in trouble if I spelled out what PFM means. ) and why Don does that and NOT me!! So you'll just love this. It applies to the ARJUN Mk II as well. What's the problem with the LAHAT, well first they had compatibility issues that took about 3 yrs to resolve, than the Indian Army said something along the lines of..."Wonderful that you've fixed the problem, well done, however LAHAT has a minimum Rng. of 1500m's and that is no longer acceptable, we want one that has a minimum Rng. of 1200m's now. So sorry, tea anyone?" Yeah that was about 3 years ago. Seems to coincide with something else HMmmm! The smart ones will figure that out. But you'll all be glad to know that the LAHAT "seems" to be back in again!! Sorry I digress.

C5. INDIA/UNITS 022 & 023/ARJUN Mk II/START DATE JAN 2020.//The Army doesn't want them other factions in the Government do. After ARJUN Mk I soundly defeated all their other tanks (They didn't enter the T-72 variants in service because they already knew what the result would be.) in opeval completion that lasted several months. The next step was the above tank. The main issues were weight, want of a better FCS, in all about, depending on refs. 85-100 improvements. This was accomplished in over the last ~3 yrs or so, and the Army still doesn't want it. They should really rethink that after the EMBRASSMENT they suffered when they choose to enter their T-90S variant in the 2017 Russian Tank Biathlon. India was disqualified because the tank broke down.
The ref. below is the latest and greatest on the matter.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/61177561.cms

HELO News game related.

C3. AUSTRILIA/UNITS 457 - 462/TIGER ARH/TIGER ARH-AT/START DATE DEC 2008.// These helicopters have had problems from every user to include several groundings by this country, France and Germany. They are all well documented. Australia received the first of them in late 2004 and had some issues from the start that pushed FOC+ back. The ref. below should be all I need here I believe. It indicates when the first 3 entered Squadron service in Darwin. Also by 2008 I'm sure they had the HELLFIRE Missiles by then as well. Ref.1 is dated NOV/DEC 2008. This has been LONG on my list to get fixed and just got lost along the way until recently-sorry for the inconvenience.
http://www.airbushelicopters.com/w1/.../customer.html
https://www.army.gov.au/our-future/m...ects/arh-tiger

All new and current pics for others good.

I'm only on requests now, should something "pop up".

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Thanks!

I look forward to seeing what Andy and you have in store for us!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

some had been done...the rest is done now