Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4

[archaeolept]

i'm pretty sure it's me that promotes teh ebil weed. Stop getting your degenerates mixed up !

[Wrana]

Sorry for taking so much time in reply. Headache trumps all.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

As far scouts, it's not +20 to all, Illwinter already boosted default stealth to +10. I do agree commanders should not be as cheap or cheaper than comparable troops, and I've made an effort that that should not be the case (even though I suspect a great many national commanders would not get used much at 0 gold). 80+ leadership is fairly immaterial when you can simply spam more indies for the same job.

And I think it's where it should generally be. With guys/gals with particular aptitude getting bonuses. As for not getting used at 0 gold - your suspictions only make reducing commanders' prices seem more silly - as if they are true the price reduction won't have much effect. Maybe a solution lies in increasing price of indies' commanders, not reducing that of nationals...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here... human light infantry are cheaper, so are satyr infantry, so are satyr sneaks. All of them are rarely employed base game.

Yes. But sneaks, for example, were cheaper than satir infantry in basegame, but have the same price in CBM.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

It's not the fact they use javelins that makes them so bad, it's the fact they are light cavalry with associated costs. Though I guess it might make sense to give jav cavalry more ammunition. And I do use peltasts in CB.

What for (except patrolling)? And I'm really interested, too - I'm planning to play Arcos in MP one day...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I don't think you can claim she is nerfed, she lost a 125 point cost, that buys a lot of new paths. Plus getting water gems. She is different from other titans and that was the intent.

I'd say that at 80 points per path this would allow buying of exactly 1 additional path... Gems are good - but thin, Mother of Rivers gets more. I assume it's possible that she works - I didn't try her. Still, seems unpromising...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Then I would guess you had worthy heroes enables as well.

Possibly. Still, as I try to make Marverni Pretender in 1.41, it doesn't show Horn Champion. Is it possible nation number got confused here?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Yes, I agree stats comparable to knight commanders seems a good idea. But I don't think they should get more expensive than 5-10 gold more than a normal chariot.

Thanks and maybe. I still think that if they are made adequate thugs individually, they would be worth more money.

About Oreiades - yes, they are useful so I guess they could be left as is.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Sauromatia for one. Also Oceania, and one of Tir Na Og's commanders. And of course the indies.

Indies of EA have light lances (maybe some were forgotten, though - in which case _it_ should be fixed). Oceania I think a special case here - as well as appearance in 1 hero (where it can be mistake, by the way). Sauromatia I concede - but you should note that there it appears only in Cataphractes - while being absent in sacreds...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I checked and you are right base game the priestess actually is more costly. So I would not object to reducing the price, but it's a very delicate game, Sauromatia has so many military commanders its easy to leave some with 100% no niche.

Thank you. And yes, certainly.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Even base game bandar have lower base defense than the vanara.

Yes. I think this was done to reflect that they are big and to an extent slowish. Still, this shouldn't be lowered too much - and I think that being better stat-wise in melee than in archery reflects Bandars training and their natural inclinations.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

(Arco commander)
There is one base game, one in CB, no real difference other than cost.

Then I just don't understand why #newmonster command was used. Or just to make price different from indies?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

(pikemen)
With extra forms, yeah, it might be workable. I'm not sure how it would make them specifically much better against cavalry though.

This way they can concentrate more attacks on each cavalryman - which would saturate their high Defense and increase Fatigue even if they won't pass armor.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I don't believe this is possible.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Quite true, but something exactly similar to curse seems even worse.

Maybe give it some smallish(?) area of effect? With maybe an increased research level to balance it?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

(Erinies)
Ideally I agree, but the effects are not very moddable, and I'm not willing to go lower on gem cost for a global, or path cost thematically, so it's the best of some poor choices.

I don't know but it seems that you've given some monsters (undead admiral, e.g.) some magic items. Maybe it's possible to do the same with Sisters and Wild Hunter?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

(Fall Bears)
If I were to tweak them I'd simply knock some gems off the cost. I'd be interested if there is wide agreement on their relative weakness.

I, at least, have heard so. Maybe someone can still say something on this?
On Banes and LAmia queens - maybe...
On Great Eagle - agree that competition in lower-level summons is big, but I just don't see much use of him as high-level commander. If he was stralthy, maybe? But this changes him too much...
Amphiptere is subjective, of course. Does it work as solitary commander (I don't remember its flavor text right now)?
On Zmey - I am not sure about usefulness , but it surely would be thematic and also would add another option which is the whole point...
Kappas - well, there are both versions already in the game. Of course, I can't positively proof both versions are necessary as summons. On the other hand, I'm not sure that commander version is more needed as a summon - after all, if you can cast it, you already have Water mages who can forge appropriate amulets to invade seas with any commander/thug...
On Celestial Servant - I don't know, either. Still, it's pretty useless as is so something should probably be done - and description suggests such a solution...
Telestic Animation I think is good enough as is - if you think it's too weak, you may add item slot or two. But it performs admirably (of course, nation with naturally strong priests and Dominion doesn't need them, but that's because of nation strength, not unit weakness).
Astral Window I agree is a minor issue - I just don't see it as the same price as Astral Projection, that's all.
Internal Alchemy and Ginseng are, I think, very useful. And I don't think they should be cast by each Tien Chi mage as a matter of course. On the other hand, it would be cool...
Blindness - I think it would be very nasty on early geme SCs. On the other hand, Fire nations would have a stimulus to concentrate early research on something other than Evocation, which is nice... Don't know, still seems too early.
About Hidden - of course, they are great fun! And pretty useful, too. Still, of course you have more experience at balancing than myself - just don't say you wern't forewarned...
Legions of steel - maybe, but in midgame, at least, it's very useful.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I must admit I have not carefully analyzed between the frost fiend and devil, I just went by Illwinter's original cost levels between the two. It is notable though that there are far more fire/blood mages than water/blood.

Yes, it's what I meant by last phrase - it's harder to get. You think that's enough to offset lower cost while it's (as I think and have heard) more useful?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I would say demon knight is in most situations better than the storm demons, I was very wary of overcheapening a high prot low enc troop with fear.

Yes, it's good. But all other demons have more mobility, 2 of 3 also being great missilers and Fiends of Darkness stealthy. Also, Earth/Blood is more rare in mages iirc. This one is pretty straightforward and so less useful than other demon troops - unless it's in head-on confrontation, with enough numbers. And it's harder to concentrate them than flying demons...

On Hell Power - maybe...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

This actually a good point, I should probably just up the improved versions number of effects and leave it more expensive.

Thanks, something like that, yes.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

The base demon jester is clearly useless, but most boosts are quite unthematic. You don't want swarms of them, and you don't want them excellent in combat.
Instead, they do exactly what jesters should, frustrate opponents by distracting assassins and commander targeting spells. They can also be used for simple tasks like carrying items and gems, building forts, possibly a chassis for spell casting items, etc.

Thanks, now I understand what you meant.

On Mound Kings - yes, please.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

No, it says exactly what it means, they are rotten as shields.

Yes, and so should be called just that (not 'rotteD' as now)!

Boots of Behemoth - it's just they are niche item in any case, requiring large-size humanoid to use. But giant nations and Titan Pretenders can use them quite effectively. I don't know why they don't. On the other hand, they seem to require also reinvigoration - but this also means that there's no point to make them lower research!

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Mainpath 6 makes the main path nature.

Sorry, forgot syntaxis. :blush:

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

(Summer Sword)
Another one I have yet to see anyone forge, in any circumstance.

Maybe it would be better for it to just require 1 path? Or just generally cheaper?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

It does seem like there is quite a bit we disagree on, but that's fine. The mod is really for the sake of the community- on almost any aspect of, if you can find enough people that agree with you on a specific change I'm almost certain to implement/unimplement it.

Well, that's why I'm posting it, of course. Generally I would like to see more thematic-based/historical decisions - and I think this quite often can be the best that we can do for balance...

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

[Please keep lances on wind riders. Arco *almost* has a bless strategy with them. They are cool units - and rather than remove the lance, I would lower the cost.

I'd say - make lances light AND lower cost!
ON Blindness - as I see it, it's anti-SC/thug/mage spell. Of course, Fireball is better against troopers! Still, as an incentive for Fire-based nations to research something other than Evocation...
ON Hidden in Sand - I see it as in different niche than living statues. Besides infantry which do not suffer from 4 aps, it gives you thug(s) and magic diversity. Of course, if you have national mages covering it...

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Turin

The dreaded multiquote. I'll try to reply:
Basically most of your suggestions might be somewhat more thematical, but would result in less interesting gameplay. For example patrol is pretty useless on a high level mage like the Guardian.

It's quite useful if you want to keep a province around your castle, for example.

Originally Posted by Turin

For the Machaka hero: His low stealth rating already makes him more of a brute force assassin and as a simple stealth thug he would be rather worthless. Would you use him instead of a simple banelord?

Banelord isn't stealthy. And requires research, of course...

Originally Posted by Turin

Anthromachus: Heroes are not free, you need to take the luck scale and more importantly you would have got a useful hero if the useless one wasn't in the game. Without immortality he would be about the same as 3 indy commanders.

Do you say that luck is useless otherwise? And his description points at him useful as commander, not a thug (of course, there are not many things which make commander both useful and unique in the game right now. Still...). Of course, you can use 3 indy commanders. Or Sleeper. Or Banelord. Or GoR someone. You think this means you don't have use for a hero which has shown up??

Originally Posted by Turin

Regarding Lanka's multiheroes(which I missed in my earlier post): Lanka got by far the best multiheroes, so they are more of an exception. More importantly they are still far less powerful than the most powerful EA heroes like the Niefel Hero or the Hinnom guys.

Don't you think that Niefel is a special case? Namely, they already have something quite similar in their recruitables. Lanka, on the other hand, while being quite powerful as is, have no access to such er... nastyness. And they can use it all right! As for it being an exception - I can only say that it was what seemed the most horrible...

[Omnirizon]

I'd like to add that the Tomb Kind summons (690, 691, and 692) should have their Holy boosted by one each (to H2, H3, H4 respectively).

this matches what is in the manual, and as it is they cant even utilize all their nationals!

and C'tis has never won a game, so I think using that as a datapoint it's pretty clear this isn't potentially imba, and that setting their Holy so low was either a mistake made in vanilla, or uncalled for precaution.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Wrana

And I think it's where it should generally be. With guys/gals with particular aptitude getting bonuses. As for not getting used at 0 gold - your suspictions only make reducing commanders' prices seem more silly - as if they are true the price reduction won't have much effect. Maybe a solution lies in increasing price of indies' commanders, not reducing that of nationals...

I think that used to be the case, but was removed.

Regarding Fall Bears: I have this ridiculous image on my mind, where they are a remote summon called "Drop Fall Bears" that only works in forests. If you can't tell, I talked with an Aussie last week.

[Trumanator]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

I'd like to add that the Tomb Kind summons (690, 691, and 692) should have their Holy boosted by one each (to H2, H3, H4 respectively).

this matches what is in the manual, and as it is they cant even utilize all their nationals!

and C'tis has never won a game, so I think using that as a datapoint it's pretty clear this isn't potentially imba, and that setting their Holy so low was either a mistake made in vanilla, or uncalled for precaution.

Yeah, I really want to utilize those summons, but paying 30 Death Gems for a lizard king who can reanimate is ridiculous.

[hunt11]

Overall the changes to Ashod are good, the only things that seems odd is the Banquet of the Dead spell, because with the current changes you need to forge magic items for your Zamzummite's to actually cast the spell, and since you lose the mage you have just lost ten death gems.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

Yeah, I really want to utilize those summons, but paying 30 Death Gems for a lizard king who can reanimate is ridiculous.

actually it's about 20 gems for kings, half that for consorts, and the difference between an H4 reanimation and H2 is less than 50%, making H2 summons more effficient for reanim factories. the only reason to go with Kings is for the H4 nationals, which with the way it is they can't even cast. that's why the proposed change.

hell, even the descrip for this particular spell reads "when a tomb king..." making it obvious that they are supposed to be H4 and were meant for the casting of this spell (the manual says so too).

[Trumanator]

My bad, going from memory. Still though, everyone talks about how precious D gems are, and those summons are EXPENSIVE!