OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[djtool]

Compromise is only when you can't get the full support you need to push whatever adjenda you promised to fulfill. [/QB]

And how often do you suppose that happens? Imagine how expeditiary our system of government would be if that were the norm? How many proposals look the same going out as they do coming in? Comprimise, scratching each others backs, whatever....is the name of the game.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I never said you said anything. Where'd you get that idea?

Of course you did.

Graeme, however, would likely call me a horrible person for saying such a thing, as if I was some sort of serial killer or mass-murderer merely because I have logically discarded an internally inconsistent belief.

[vigabrand]

Cainehill, your remark about tax cuts for the rich is BS. I am not rich, and I got a check in the mail. If you didn't get yours, you didn't check your mail. Everyone who paid taxes got a return, unless you owed the gov't money. I find it funny that you think it's wrong for the "rich" to get a tax cut since they're the ones paying most of the taxes. Here you go, the IRS's report:

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

The top 50% of wage earners in the U.S. paid 96% of all taxes, and we all got money back. The top 5% of all wage earners pay something like 50% of all taxes. Incidentally, the gov't defines "rich" as making 90k/year. I'm pretty middle class and I was pretty damn happy to get some money back. Everyone got a tax cut, the "rich" just got a lot more back because they paid a lot more. I don't know why you don't like our economic system, it's not perfect and could definately be improved, but it's still the best in the world. You seem to think it's unfair somewhere but I'm telling you that 99% of peoples economic problems are their own doing. I still see people flocking to the U.S in droves, yet I don't see U.S. citizens flocking to other countries. Something good must be happening around this horrible country of ours.

[ July 27, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: vigabrand ]

[Arryn]

Viga, your post about tax cuts to Cainehill is full of fecal matter. As someone who was making over $70k/yr., well up in that "top 50%" Category, my tax cut amounted to a whopping $300, which is less than 2% of my annual tax burden. For that, I can look forward to far more than $300 in *increased* taxes later, when it eventually comes time to pay the piper and compound interest gets factored in. Debt is bad. Period. I don't pay credit card interest, and I resent like hell being forced to pay interest on the massive debts the government foolishly incurs in order to please corporate entities and wacko economists. "Supply-side" economics was proven to be a bankrupt ideology (to steal a phrase from Reagan) during the rosy years of Reagan and Bush Sr., and it's just as silly today under Bush Jr.. It simply does not work in the real world. But, we all know that Bush Jr. & friends do not live in the real world ...

[vigabrand]

I think you missed my point Arryn. The refund was not big, but everyone got one, not just the rich. It was our money to begin with and for the middle class, every little bit helps. You may not think so, so give it back. You dismiss my claims by claiming that you'll have to pay it all back and more later, then make opinions on whether certain economic plans work. I dunno, seems to be working to me. Seems we have the fastest economic growth in the Last 20 years. Seems Allen Greenspan agrees that the Bush tax cuts are responsible for the growing economy. Greenspan doesn't like the debt, but tax cuts do not always mean high deficits. Let's try trimming some of the fat off of pork projects, and lets start balancing the budget. It is my opionion that there is plenty of money in the pot to pay for necessities. Simple fact, congress pays for too much crap.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Arryn:
. For that, I can look forward to far more than $300 in *increased* taxes later, when it eventually comes time to pay the piper and compound interest gets factored in. Debt is bad. Period. I don't pay credit card interest, and I resent like hell being forced to pay interest on the massive debts the government foolishly incurs in order to please corporate entities and wacko economists. "Supply-side" economics was proven to be a bankrupt ideology (to steal a phrase from Reagan) during the rosy years of Reagan and Bush Sr., and it's just as silly today under Bush Jr.. It simply does not work in the real world. But, we all know that Bush Jr. & friends do not live in the real world ...

first some questions cause i am quite unfamiliar with taxes in the usa unfortunately .
how much % of their income do "upper" ( 90k$+ ) , middle and low class have to pay in annual taxes ?

why are taxes increased in the future ? i don't understand that . lower taxes mean more consuming . the companies make even more profit and become even more competetive .
so with the lowered taxes expect in the very short run the tax income doesn't drop , most likely it even increases in the long run .

finally does the us government has some measures like tolls or political pressure which it can make if nothing else helps to keep the economy going .they are a bit immoral but this simply won't be necessary anyway as long as you keep republicans as presidents .
only bad thing is if you constantly switch between democrats and republicans and only thing they do is trying to abolish the things again which the former party did . but if there can be managed a constant policy from one party for 12 , 16 or 20 years this won't happen .

[Arryn]

Originally posted by vigabrand:
I still see people flocking to the U.S in droves, yet I don't see U.S. citizens flocking to other countries. Something good must be happening around this horrible country of ours.

Perhaps US citizens are just fat, dumb, and oblivious?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by vigabrand:
I think you missed my point Arryn. The refund was not big, but everyone got one, not just the rich. It was our money to begin with and for the middle class, every little bit helps.

It's utter foolishness that, when you are already in debt up to your eyeballs, you incur more debt just to make yourself feel good. Which is just what the tax cuts accomplished. The government owed money before the cuts; it had already been spent, and the money for the cuts has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is taxpayers, and the debt must eventually be paid. If not by us, then our children, or their children. And the longer you take to pay a debt, the more money it costs you.

BTW, if you look at the numbers, the Iraq war is costing taxpayers about the same amount of money as the tax cuts. So not only is the government borrowing money it doesn't have to pay back taxpayers, it's borrowing even more money to pay for a war that the pre-tax cut budget hadn't accounted for. IOW, the Bushies have dug the hole twice (or more) as deep. A hole that need not have been dug at all.

If you want a tax cut, get your Congresscritters to stop SPENDING our money.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by vigabrand:
I think you missed my point Arryn. The refund was not big, but everyone got one, not just the rich. It was our money to begin with and for the middle class, every little bit helps. You may not think so, so give it back.

I would gladly have given back mine if I thought it would give back what it killed. It sure didnt carry over to this year. As middle-class homeowner with kids they keep saying I should be getting wonderul improvements but this appears to be a horrible year.

I dunno, seems to be working to me. Seems we have the fastest economic growth in the Last 20 years.

Really? I keep hearing that but all I see are lack of jobs, lack of services, and lack of feeling like things are going well. I dont tend to vote one way or the other but Im having trouble figuring out why this is supposed to be better than the Last guys term. I keep hearing it but personally it doesnt feel that way. And everyone I talk to seem to be in the same boat. Even the ones that agree with whats being said seem to not have any of those benefits in their own lives. They say things like "well of course personally things arent going well but the country is doing much better"

[ July 27, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Boron:
why are taxes increased in the future ? i don't understand that.

Because the money that the government borrows must be paid back with interest. Which means that if the government spends X dollars today for something (a war, tax cuts, whatever), then taxpayers must later pay taxes equal to X dollars + Y dollars of interest. X+Y > X

lower taxes mean more consuming.

A flawed assumption. The extra money might be hoarded. Or it might be spent on items that do not lead to job growth, especially if producers retain profits rather than create jobs or if they spend the profits on paying shareholders. This Last item means you transfer wealth from the lower and middle classes (most consumers) to the upper class (most shareholders). And the upper class hoards money far more than they spend it, so it doesn't cycle back. It just concentrates at the top.

the companies make even more profit and become even more competetive.

Companies are *less* competitive when profits are high because they aren't needing to work as hard at getting their customers to pay.