OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[Tifone]

I think we're all deeply thinking adults here, maybe even with a quite high QI, but thanks for your interest
If you want to go deep into some religious mistery, please feel free to do it and maybe we can "solve" even them through discussion and multiple points of view from the most believers to the most skeptics

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

You put the finger on my problem with truth etc. The christian article of faith includes the belief in God becoming flesh in Jesus and sacrificing his son for the salvation of mankind. Of course there have been other articles of faith that claim to be christian. Once they were considered heretic. Today they are just considered other faiths. Jehovah's Witnesses are not christian according to the earlier christian articles of faith, but they consider themselves christian.

If there is a God there is a truth and only one of the articles of faith is true. I can't get rid of my logically based worldview - thus do not think there can be multiple truths regarding the truth.

New articles of faith where an individual or a religious movement states his/its beliefs might be true, but they cannot be true at the same time as every other article of faith. If we accept multiple truths there will be some faiths and ideologies that readily accepts practices others would abhor. So if there is no truth other than what everyone accepts for his own truth a believer of a truth could legitimize atrocities. I do not like atrocities. This is why I hate postmodernism. On the other hand I dislike people who would force their will and their beliefs upon others. Since there is no way of knowing which belief system is the TRUTH I dislike people who believe they know the truth and what they might do. Everyone who believes in a truth has a moral duty to his own belief system. Thus a believer in a truth is potentially a dangerous man in the view of someone not sharing the same belief system. My problem with postmodernism might be that it defends fundamentalist beliefs. Somewhat ironic.

Didn't Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all technically start with Moses? So they all believe in the same god, but in very different ways.

They are all believers in the same entity, and they all think the others are heading to hell. Now you have dozens of individual Christian denominations, and many of them think that many of the others are going to hell.

I'd bet that in just about any given church around the world, you can find people who will tell you that other members of that same church, are heading straight to hell.

Obviously no one sane is advocating a clear distinction of "violence is okay if directed at someone who does not believe correctly", but what if they try to preach their version of the truth to your friends, your loved ones, your children? Is no sacrifice too great to save them from being corrupted by heretical thoughts? Would you sacrifice a simple non-believer, because they were an adequate threat to your loved ones' ability to enter into heaven?

(That's not really directed at you Kristoffer, just what you wrote inspired it, so I quoted you. )

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

I agree with you on the depth of the subject. That being said, I know some people were touched thru this discussion. Those people need the message kept simple because they are babies. I won't go into the higher mysteries because it will confuse them.

I really like you Bwaha, but I'm sure you could have put that a bit more politely. I've seen and experienced things that would blow your mind and test your faith - but I've not come here to condescend to anyone, just to discuss.

<3

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I've seen and experienced things that would blow your mind and test your faith

"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion"? "C-Beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate"?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Tifone

"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion"? "C-Beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate"?

Actually, though I won't go into profound personal details, the term "Near Death Experience" isn't nearly enough. "Temporary Death Experience" might describe things more clearly. The universe looks a little bit different when your heart stops beating, and you stop breathing. And the world looks a bit different when you start doing those things again, perhaps a bit unexpectedly.

[Tifone]

Seems like a "forming experience" nobody would really like to experience Jim...


Returning into the "Bible" subject, I was wondering if anybody knows this site other than me: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com.
It discusses many matters of faith from the atheist and strongly reason-guided point of view. Who, like me, doesn't believe (while I'm agnostic and not atheist) will find an interesting reading there.
A believer instead, may wish to give a read and give a little "test" to his/her faith against the arguments of the author (I'm not in any way connected to the website). I thing it has some strong points - of course it is to be read without prejudices, and just letting your own brain and reason work .
If anyone reads the site and wants to discuss something he's welcome.

Best wishes

[HoneyBadger]

It's not meant to be insulting, and I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to put things in perspective. I believe Humanity to have a vast potential, and you're absolutely right-it has already achieved spectacular results.

I'm not committed to solopsism, I'm just intrigued by it-and for the record, I do believe you exist apart from me. But it's still just a belief. And I don't find solopsism pessimistic. It's all in how you take it, and what you do with it. For me, the consideration of it quiets some of the fears and uncertainties that *I* have about the Universe, and myself, and my place in it. Doesn't silence them, but helps me, as-as you say-a though experiment, deal with my life without going completely insane.

But none of that denies the uselessness, and even harmfulness, of trying to weigh belief-systems against one another. If anything, you should be trying to integrate the best parts of each into a greater whole.

[HoneyBadger]

"To put it another way: If all you do is feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and tend to the sick without ever telling them about Jesus, then all you've accomplished is to send well-fed, well-dressed, healthy people to Hell."

SlipperyJim: It's this line right here, this perfect moment of crystal clarity, in which you render your entire faith, religion, and hope of salvation, utterly and completely empty, meaningless, forever a non-relevant, non-entity--atleast for me and for everything I hold to be good.

You seem like a true believer, a representative of the faith, a man of God, and a man who atleast *wants* to do good, so I thank you for giving me an insight into what lies at the heart of one Christian's relationship with God-you've put to bed any lingering doubts I might ever have had about not being a Christian anymore. Free from angst that my life might have been better and richer, had I chosen another path, I continue on, stronger and freer than ever before.

[Tifone]

My dear Badger please take a breath and re-read Slippery's post in its integrity

I think you are quite taking the quote out of its context. SlipperyJim stated clearly that he believes in building something great together despite of the differences of believing. Feeding the poor etc.

But you must accept that he (as his religion commands) believes in a somewhat invisible force that continues to live after s.o.'s death (belief that was born far before Christians and Jews, so not so strange... it was actually existing beyond Neanderthals, far before new earth creationists think the world was even born but that's another story) and that this force must be preserved from evil after death - even the one of other ppl - as a moral duty. This leads him to believe that some teachings are as important, or even more important (counting for a literal "eternity"), than feeding those poor people - just live with it. But he never said feeding and helping poors is useless. The contrary.

Plz, don't ruin your nice words of mutual acceptance because of that. Slippery may have used words me and you don't like too much but I'm sure his intentions are good - and his efforts directed even in more "physical life" (we would call it "real life" maybe ) ways

Best wishes

PS also remind that Slippery doesn't represent an entire faith of religion - our friend is a self-proclaimed (as far as I understood) fundamentalist evangelical Christian, so extending his ideas (good or bad) to an entire community of believers should be done with great caution.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm not saying anything against SlipperyJim, or against his religion. I have absolutely nothing against him, and I've stated the few things I have against his religion-neither of which are primary to it, and one of which is entirely in disagreement with what his religion stands for-and yet, has been circling closer and closer to the core of it's message-as it is spread.

I'm just saying that I'm not compatible with it, and I gave the quote as a prime example why that's the case. And as I mentioned, he's just serving as a representative of that religion-and as far as I can tell, has the best of intentions.

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote?

I'm not attempting to be anything less than accepting and welcoming of other points of view-sadly, some of those views are not my own, which is why I can make statements about the strength of variety and differences.

Please try not to find antagonism within simple disagreement. My desire is that we all get along, but that desire doesn't subjugate my own point of view.