What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[Isto]

To add to the last post, i wrote this:


Happened to think also another possible weaknesses for Laser Weaponry.

Is it not so, that to function properly, Laser Weapon need to be continuously burning the target for some time ?

If this is so. Then Target Saturation would become a problem, as the Laser Weapon cannot move from Target to Target fast enough to Neuralize multiple targets fast enough.

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry (Cluster Munition), which all are Offline Guided (as in, not affected by Electronic Warfare or Jamming) with sophisticated enough Independent (offline) Seek and Destroy algorithm that enables each of those 48 incoming warheads to attack the Laser Weapon, or any platforms it attempts to protect.

(These Cluster Munitions function similar than SADARM or BONUS Round, but without the Parachute. Making the Target Acquisition, Lock and Launch in the fly)

How well do Laser Weaponry function against this type of threats ?

Air Burst Munitions for example, shoot in rapid succession, can track multiple targets, change direction in the air and have wide (burst) area that they affect.

There can be many weaknesses that Laser Weaponry have hard time to overcome.

For example, in situation given above. Properties that Air Burst munition loaded Autocannons offer (possibility to affect many targets on short timeframe, possibility to affect larger area with each shot) seem superior when compared to properties of Laser Weaponry (need to focus fire on a single target and stay focused on it for extended period of time).


Also. Against Missiles: Future Cruise Missiles are portrayed to carry 2 smaller missiles to shoot the incoming missiles down, that are supposed to destroy the missile. And all kind of Cluster or Swarm capabilities are spoken of. Again, a single missile, or even few of them have high cost ratio, and Air Burst Autocannons do not, and can possibly track and eliminate multiple threats at the same time, and on top of that, are able to provide other capabilities that the missiles do not (Indirect Fire, Direct Fire, Armor Piercing Munition and so on).

Autocannon is a multi use tool, that can offer support fire in all kind of situations. But how i see it, its main function is to offer support in close range Air Defence and while doing so, especially excel in multi threat environment (because of high Rate of Fire, Area of Effect and relatively low cost of Ammunition).

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Isto

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry)

Current UK laser weapon accuracy is being able to put 50KW onto a target about the diameter of the 1 EURO coin (25mm~) at 1 km distance.

If you have to separate your main munition into submunitions at say 2 km distance to present a credible target to the laser; the laser has inflicted virtual attrition -- because now wind is going to cause drift, unless you make the submunitions powered/controlled, which drives cost up and reduces # per missile.

So it's a vicious circle you're starting.

I think we're all going to converge on some sort of hybrid Air Defense/General Support vehicle where you have:

1.) 75-100 KW laser for general trash duties (popping drones, shooting down random stuff, destroying UXO in place etc)

2.) 70mm Guided Rocket Pod filled with 40~ 70mm HYDRA type rockets with either a laser guidance kit (cheap) or millimetric wave radar gudiance (expensive). Ukraine is already using laser guided 70mm Hydra-type rockets in airburst/proximity fuze mode against Iranian Shaheed drones.

https://greydynamics.com/vampires-in...rocket-system/

Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS) rockets. The APKWS is a 70mm laser-guided rocket that cost US$27,500 per unit.

The reason I selected a 70mm rocket was that if we put a 40mm Case Telescoped Gun with proximity airburst rounds onto the platform, people will start using it as a general purpose support vehicle, driving it up onto the battlefield to hose down houses and buildings we don't like, which isn't optimal as stuff that shows up on the battlefield for direct fire roles gets shot at.

With 70mm laser guided rockets, you don't even have to have the system be in direct line of sight for engaging ground targets; someone could have a laser designator and guide in the rocket; allowing more "covered area" than a 40mm CTA gun.

3.) Active Radar Effectors -- Modern Digital reprogrammable AESA radars which you'll need to find and target drones anyway -- can be reprogrammed easily for electronic attack -- sending short, focused hyper intense bursts of radar energy -- to fry ("zap") relatively unshielded drones during periods of extremely bad weather where the laser range is reduced.

[DRG]

Lasers are a niche specialist tool under specific conditions. They are not going to replace chemical energy weapons ( AKA "bullets" )

[SaS TrooP]

About technologies BTW... What recently happened with AA weapons? After last update I believe, aircraft are extremely tough to be shot down by any means. It is quite ridiculous at this point and I wonder if there no problem with the formula calculating shoot down chances.

Like I am recently playing modern scenario, firing modern Stinger missiles against the old (!) Su-25 Grakh with less than 10% chances.
Also old MIG-29SMs are easily capable of outmaneuvering NASAMS system what is quite improbable, with ECMs downing NASAMS shoot down chances to less than 10%.

Choppers currently ignore MANPADS. Quite literally. ECMs make MANPADS (newest types) ineffective, and even if they hit they rarely score any damage.

This is a bit contradictory to Ukraine experiences, where MANPADS proove to be as deadly to choppers as in the past, and while aircraft must be careful with operations under any type of AA umbrella.
I recommend decreasing the EW of the aircraft to somehow bring it back to normal.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/conflict_live/st...52802369511580

First confirmed use of an Unmanned Ground Vehicle (UGV) armed with AGS-17 Grenade launcher, by the #Russian Army.

[DRG]

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by DRG

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

FPVs seem to have filled this role for now; due to their ubiquity.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1774123912881754622

Both Russian UGVs were struck by FPVs from Ukraine’s 47th Mechanized Brigade.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1775245364322250804
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1772009281404969419

Photos of a Russian FPV strike on a Ukrainian UGV.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1733547609921352021

Video of a Ukrainian FPV strike on a Russian UGV used to transport ammunition to the front line.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...49766520779176

The 🇺🇦Ukrainian military blew up a bridge in the village of Ivanivske, Donetsk region, with a Ratel S kamikaze ground robot

[MarkSheppard]

Ground Lasers are now somewhat deployed....

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...31854737093043

Three DE M-SHORAD military close-in defense laser systems are currently deployed in Iraq. During the tests, it is planned to evaluate their actual ability to repel attacks from small drones, as well as to intercept mines and missiles.

In September 2023, the American Army created the first experimental military air defense unit, which was equipped with exactly 50 kW laser systems - a separate platoon as part of the 4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill (4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma). Of the 4 vehicles in the platoon, 3 are now in Iraq.

Based on the results of the tests, a decision will be made on whether to put the complex into service or send it for revision.

[MarkSheppard]

Apparently the Ukrainians have formed specialized FPV/Drone units to function as "cleanup" units.

One unit on the Avdiivka front is called "SHADOW" and what they do is they wait until a Russian assault has been shattered; then start flying drones equipped with incendiary devices around, looking for abandoned/knocked out Russian vehicles and then dropping said incendiaries down open hatches, etc.

Once a good fire is burning, move on to the next target; as the protective quality of the armour is destroyed by sustained fires.

[DRG]

It also eliminates the possibility of a merely damaged vehicle being recovered and repaired by both sides