Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Zen]

Yvelina said:
I do not know whether I should be openning my mouth in such august company, but isn't there a problem with changing the order/turmoil and luck/misfortune scale? The Marignon&Devils and Spring&Autumn themes would get a major boost. After all, Turmoil is supposed to be a bad scale that keeps these two themes down.

In the same way, some of the nations that are required to take Death and Misfortune would be influenced as well. The Vampire Queen nerf hurt Black Forest Ulm hard. I do not think the theme can actually survive increased penalties for death and misfortune.

Good question.

Well the Order/Turmoil issue is not that Diabolic Faith and S&A (and BK, don't forget will become overpowered unless not enough thought is done to the repositioning. But making Order less of a single impact (Gold, and that's all really). Because as it stands now, a Forced Turmoil 1 Nation does not lose 7% Income (A slight but significant impact nationwide), but instead loses 28% (Since if you can take Order and decide to take it (Safe bet) you will pick Order 3). If this scale had less of a single influence impact and some of it's single influence (Gold) was adjusted to other scales then it would still be "the Scale" for Gold, but if you were forced to take Turmoil, you could circumvent some of that gold loss by taking another scale.

Death on the other hand, I do not agree that adjusting it will hamper Black Forest (or Helheim), simply because I *always* take Death to some degree. Death 2 to be precise. And it may be because I don't play games past the 100 Turn mark, or that I don't want to rely on my Dominion to keep supply (Since it's hard enough to maintain). And it's a playstyle issue. However, the minute death of the death scale coupled with the minor loss of income makes Growth seem (to me) to be a waste of points.

On the Misfortune part: There are, I think, two schools of thought on this. The first being that you are going to have bad events even if you have luck, so you might as well get some Nation/Pretender points if you do (a valid opinion). The second is that even some of the Minor Luck events on the side of "Good Luck" tend to not give enough to be considered lucky (Milita don't get the ol' juices flowing), so taking Luck is a gamble (Perhaps Long shot), whereas taking Misfortune is playing the spread.

Like I said, I haven't rolled out the mod because I haven't tested it enough personally to feel comfortable with the changes (which are no, in fact standard changes of adjusting *just* the Scale adjustments).

[Edi]

Time to get in those Asynja comments:

With the Asynja's cost unmodified and her magic not increased, she is a totally useless pretender to take compared to the male titan.

Reasons why: The main point to take Asynja would be to get air blessing (Air 9, probably). However, it is cheaper to achieve Air 9 with titan, even though its initial cost is greater. Assuming same scales, same dominion strength and same castle, the titan is 21 points cheaper, and it is physically more powerful and has 100% shock resistance, which the asynja does not. The Asynja is stealthy and has glamour, which imo does not nearly compensate for the other shortcomings, especially when the titan only has a new pathcost of 50 vs Asynja's 40.

Furthermore, the point totals are set up so that typically the asynja will have an uneven number of points unspent that are not enough to afford anything useful, while the titan with the otherwise same everything will have 40 points, or one more scale left.

The titan's cost was lowered from the unmodded game, while the asynja is unchanged, and even in the unmodded game, to achieve the same effects (assuming Air 9), the titan was 6 points cheaper. As things stand right now, the Asynja is a complete and utter waste of resources unless one is fond of having a sneaking pretender leading an army of Vanheim holy units, but why take the pretender when you can have the Vanheimn commanders (glamour + stealth) do the same?

I would suggest either lowering Asynja's base cost or beefing her up a bit, or doing something to make her more attractive than the immediate competition for the same role.

Edi

[Zen]

Edi said:The titan's cost was lowered from the unmodded game, while the asynja is unchanged, and even in the unmodded game, to achieve the same effects (assuming Air 9), the titan was 6 points cheaper. As things stand right now, the Asynja is a complete and utter waste of resources unless one is fond of having a sneaking pretender leading an army of Vanheim holy units, but why take the pretender when you can have the Vanheimn commanders (glamour + stealth) do the same?

I would suggest either lowering Asynja's base cost or beefing her up a bit, or doing something to make her more attractive than the immediate competition for the same role.

Edi

Thanks Edi. I have run into the Asynja problem, but I wasn't really lookint at it in regards to the Titan, but rather in regards to the Allfather. She is the medium between them but doesn't seem to fit in either role. Though she is significantly cheaper with the same SC capability as the unmodded Allfather (without the intrinsic flying, or mounted, which does play a difference, as well as having to equip flying boots).

I haven't been able to find much information on the Asynja mythology (This is Freya?) as far as looking for ideas that do not conflict with other Gods.

This problem is run into with a variety of nations with Nation specific pretenders. One you'll see is Pangaea, as well as Ermor and Man have issues with this.

[Huzurdaddi]

so taking Luck is a gamble (Perhaps Long shot), whereas taking Misfortune is playing the spread.

Spoken like someone who lives in Vegas!

[Truper]

I wasn't able to find that much about the Asynja, but here's what little I did find: Asynja is not a specific deity, but the word for a female Aesir, one of the two pantheons of Norse gods, along with the Vanir.

Since the Allfather is Odin (who has a lot of names, including Wotan, whom I mistakenly thought was another deity), it might make sense to associate the Asynja with Frigg (or Frigga), the mother goddess and wife of Odin. Frigg and Freya are closely related, and may in fact be different aspects of the same deity. Frigg was considered queen of the heavens, the goddess of motherhood, fertility, love and housework. She was reputed to have the ability to forsee everyone's destiny without revealing it. She owned a necklace, the Brisingamen, which, besides making her irresistable to man or god, gave support to any army which she favored on the battlefield. She also possessed a cloak of feathers which allowed her to change into a falcon, or into the battle-boar Hildisvin (which she is also described as riding). She chooses half the slain on the battlefield, whilst Odin gets the other half (is this the justification for the Allfather's death magic?). As Freya, she also practised Seidhr, the form of magic practised by the Volva. There is speculation that Gullveg was Freya under another name, and if so, she was stabbed and burnt 3 times, but arose from the flames each time and transformed herself into Heidhr, the Glorious, mistress of magic. This started the war between the Aesir and Vanir.

Whew. Confusing stuff But out of it, I can come up with some suggestions. 1) Give the Asynja some nature magic, since she's a fertility goddess. Problem is she basically becomes a Mother of Tuathas 2) Give her the ability to avert bad events, since she foresees destiny, and practises Seidhr. Not bad, and especialy thematic for Midgard. You'd probably even want to change her path to Astral. 3) Give her a standard, since she owns the Brisingamen. 4) Depict her as riding a great boar, and give her trampling. 5) Let her tranform into a falcon. 6) Make her immortal - but I don't know that Dom2 needs an immortal titan-class pretender

I rather favor changing her path to 2S, or possibly 1S1N, and giving her a standard effect, while removing the glamor. It might be a bit much to give her bad luck prevention as well, but it might be thematic. She should remain a mighty warrior, as all the Aesir were apparently gods of war.

[Reverend Zombie]

...but don't touch her Friggin Volva!

[Daynarr]

So, basically, you need something to make Asynja different than Titan and Allfather and still a good choice for players?

[Zen]

Yes. Without stepping on the toes of any other pretenders (like the Tuatha). I am perfectly fine keeping her base stats the way they are now (Since Vanir have glamour, it says, and Valkyries).

Truper has come up with some great suggestions, a few of which I can't use (I can't have her prevent bad events, as of yet).

Also making her turn into a hawk would require significant image modding which I am more than lackluster with.

All suggestions are welcome.

[Wauthan]

I don't know it will help but I guess I could mention a few of the more anonymous asynjas from the myths. Trouble is that little is known about them or if they even survived ragnarok (which seems to have taken place in the Dominions setting).

Brynhild was the leader of the valkyrie. She is featured in the saga of Sigurd Fafnesbane. A pick in death magic and flying seems appropriate.

Eir was the asynja of the healing arts. She tended the wounded at ragnarok and thus is a possible survivor. Should get the healing ability as well as picks that give her access to atleast one healing spell.

Eldsborg was the asynja of the hearth, or lifegiving fire. I know next to nothing about her but giving vanheim access to firemagic is an interesting shift in gameplay.

Frigg as you mentioned had the power of foresight and the stories tell that she knew lore that was hidden even from Odin. She would have known the outcome of Ragnarok and might well have travelled to the vanir for protection.

Freya is perhaps the most famous asynja, being the godess of love (but not fertility since that her brother Freys domain). She wears the brisinggamen (the burning necklace) and is able to change into a falcon. Should have no picks in magic but high awe and most likely the seduction ability, with stealth to be meaningful. The sprite for the unit is not appropriate though, considering Freya was not a warrior in any aspect.

Fjorgyn was the mother of mighty Thor. She was the asynja of fertility until she retired and left the domain to Frey. Since the gods are ageless she fits the anonymous warrior role fairly well. One might guess that she would also want to return to full godhood since her she didn't retire in a very gentle fashion. It seems even gods have politics. She would be a powerful nature pretender if anything.

Gondul (Bearer of the sorcerous staff) is also very likely. She was one of the highest ranking valkyrie and famous for her skill in battlemagic. No starting picks but pathcost 10.

Groa only plays a minor role in one of Thors sagas but is described as a powerful magician, skilled in healing wounds.

Gullveig was a powerful valkyrie and it was her death that sparked the vanir-aesir war. Her name means "The power of gold" and she was known as a extraordinary skilled mage. She could be back with a vengeance now that the gates of the underworld have opened wide.

Hild was another valkyrie, keeper of the domain of neverending war. Her name means "battle" or "struggle".

Nierthys or Nerthus is the elder goddess of fertility, outdating even the aesir. Once the head of the whole pantheon she was replaced by Odin when the old religion shifted into a lot more patriarchial structure. She fits the role as a pretender well and would be accosiated with nature and earth. It's diety I shifted the Asynja into in my own mod.

Ran is the asynja of storms and the ocean. A grim warrior as well as a respected diety. Should get air and water.

Saga was the asynja of storytelling and the storytellers mead. The only daughter of the highest ranking aesir, Odin and Frigg. She was the first who saw the flames of Ragnarok billowing from the home of the elves. Saga means "She who watches".

Skade was not exactly an asynja. She was a jotun who married the aesir Njord. But nevertheless she had her own domains. Hunting and skiing. She is described as a very mighty warrior indeed and it was trough sheer intimidation that she forced the aesir to provide her with a husband.

Skuld was the most important of all the valkyrias, even more so than Brynhild. She was also one of the nornas and had dominion of time not yet passed. Skuld means "Future".

Trud was the daughter of Thor and Sif. Strongest of all the asynjas and even her own father, legendary for his great strength, was pushed to his limits when they wrestled. She must have been quite a handful as a child. Her name means "Strength". A fierce valkyrie who never met her match on the battlefield.

There are of course even more asynjas but these are the ones I felt most appropriate for the role. Illwinter seems to have been thinking along the line of a valkyrie pretender though. Only Ran is accosiated with airmagic though and she was hardly one to use illusions, being a "smite first and ask for prayers later" kind of diety.

[Kristoffer O]

Truper: Odin was a god of the dead. He collects dead warriors from the battle field and has a place for dead warriors to live. He also hanged himself to gain magical knowledge (thus his name hangatyr/hangadrott - the hanged god/king). Apart from being a god of the dead he is a god of wisdom, magic, poetry, berserker fury, war and rulership. He studied Seidhr and forbid the other aesir to practice it as it would make them 'girlish'.

Wautan and others: Norse mythos is quite incoherent. There are three categories of gods. Aesir, vanir and giants. They are rather interchangeable. When a god is evil or wicked he is a giant. When a giantess (skade) marries an aesir she is called a god.

Gullveig is also another name for Angerboda, the hag of the iron wood, mother of monsters (Fenrer etc).

Skuld was one of the norns. I haven't heard any reference to her as a valkyrie, but it is not improbable that she was called valkyrie at times.

The reason the asynja is given air magic is because we have given vanheim air magic and wanted to make her a pretender with the same magic as her nation uses.

The magic of vanheim is actually not appopriate mythologiacally. Vanir were gods of fertility and nature. Frey, Freya and Njord were vanir. The aesir that replaced most of the vanir were less 'primitive' and had roles as gods of war, rulership etc.