I suck with Pythium ... please help!

Boron, the reason why you don't see many people arguing with you is an age-old one. People who are happy with the status quo don't need to make a noise to get what they want; they already have it.

Cainehill made the key point. If Caelum with False Horror is so broken, why is Caelum not dominant in most or all MP games? This is in fact a theme in these discussions. Every week we hear about a new tactic which is clearly broken and a guaranteed game-winner. Yet none of them turn up that regularly in my MP experience, and when they do they don't show any sign of guarranteeing victory.

Anyway, the whole point about multi-player diplomatic games is that they're self-balancing. If Caelum really did become that dominant, then everybody's behaviour towards it would change. So if all else fails, Ulm's defense against Caelum is to pay Abysia to stab him in the back!

Mark

[Cohen]

Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum, and if some games aren't win by Caelum it's because 3 or more people gang up against a far stronger Caelum, and they bring it down ... but they're 3 Nations against 1 however.

[Tuna]

Boron said:

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .

False horror, with mr of 10 (9 in magic lands), one hitpoint and no resistances, not even poison, succumbs to ANY spell. Ever looked at those research level 1/2 spells with very low damage and wondered what they are there for? Now you know.

Marignon, fire flies/fire darts. Darts are more accurate (prec 4 vs 0). Put mages in middle of troops, not behind, and you are pretty much guaranteed a hit or two. As mages usually have high mr, the risk is very small. Also, in alteration combustion guarantees a kill per casting for only 10- fatigue and level 1 spell. On the other hand, it cannot hit more than one target a round.

Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.

In addition to those, the cloud spells are very very useful, esp the freezing mists, that kills every fh in it, is size 4 + and does negligible damage to normal units. (some morale damage though) Ironically, the best landlubber to cast it is a Caelian HSeraph...

A bit more excotic ways are anything with mr and a fireshield is quaranteed to kill all fh:s nearby, Hydras, bog beasts, anything with att >16 and a longer weapon than 0. (that might be too expensive though).

If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .

Ok. Give any nation and I tell how it defeats a false horror spam cheaply. Perhaps not cheaper than 180g or even 90 gp, but after you use it, the seraph is gone but you have not taken any losses, so in the end you win. The problem people have with fh is not a lack of working counters, but that it can take out any pd and is very very mobile. Which is exactly what caelum is supposed to be. But then again, make a few fh hunting teams consisting of a single master smith or something, or just give good scripts for the mages you use as sitesearchers, and the caelians lose many good mages as they hit the few pd units augmented with a mage.

How about next time you find a "massively overpowered thing" like you make false horrors sound like, you take a few moments alone with the SCQR, MIQR, game manual spell quide and the said critter's/spell's/whatever's description and think: "Now, if I were a false horror, what would I fear..."

One of the really great things about dom2 is the depth. No, all spells are not balanced with each other. false horror's cost is not fine-tuned to match the gain you get from it compared to, say, immolation. That's the way warcraft works. In dom2, you play a game of rock/paper/scissors, only with a few thousand different moves.

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it.

I am playing Caelum quite often, but I dont use false horrors extensively. They are good for small skirmish squads in undefended territories or against very small squads having no mages for backup, but otherwise they are simply too weak.

In a current game I play against Marignon: Marignon sends in Paladins and Flagellants. Their morale is too high for starting a rout by a couple of quickened seraphs casting false horrors only, and their armor offers a fine protection against the false horrors, while etherealness of the false horror is useless against a Fire-9 blessing...

I also tried myself against Ermor: Sure, some undead die against false horrors, but they dont rout and easily overwhelm a couple of false horrors, at least the number of undead I usually receive when playing against ermor. Any orb-lightning does better than a false horror...


I feel that they are rightly priced: They are Illusions! Illusions should be cheap to produce and should be available at large. And an Illusion should be strong and terrific. If you can create any image of your liking, why would you settle for something weak?

Illusions are a powerful tool against all those who believe that they are strong (like those crying for nerfs) and are pretty weak against those who disbelief...

[Mardagg]

Cohen said:
Hordes from Hell requires 30 Blood Slaves.
Some could trapeze costs 6-9 air gems.

And Imps are worst than False Horrors.

What do you want to say with this?

You compare Blood slaves with Air gems?
You compare a battlefield only spell with a summoning spell??

It wasnt my intention at all to compare those 2 spells,I just showed an example strat how to beat False Horror spam and how I beat Caelum in the end.
Those Imps had been very handy for conquering the multiple Watch Towers of my enemy.
Once you can counter the False Horror strat,an enemy who was completely relying on it,will have extreme difficulties.

False Horror is a strong spell,but not too strong imo.

[Cohen]

An Illusion coundn't kill.

Well against a F9 blessing you go for some horrors slowing Marignon guys and you kill via orb lightning.
However Caelum is more mobile than Marignon. So he can avoid your flagellants and paladins, that couldn't be everywhere and take all undefended province.

If you choose to advance in his land with an army he'll death rout it by surrounding it taking all provinces and sending in a little bigger expedition force.

[Chazar]

I do not say that Caelum is helpless against Marignon, all I am saying is that Marignon is not helpless against Caelian horrors - and that I do not use false horrors against foes like Marignon as Caelum myself, for I find them to be too weak...

Hmm, I've never ever met an Illusion that I realized as such, but according to most fantasy-magic-rpg-folklore that I am aware of, Illusions usually kill quite well...

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

*Howl of snickering laughter* Ah, you really know how to display your good judgement and intelligence. This is kinda like you using a novel as the basis for your estimation of real world military strengths.

Just because Stormbinder writes about himself in glowing, messianic terms doesn't make it so.

[Zen]

Boron said:
I just wanted to give you counterexamples .
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

I'm going to totally disregard this statement. Otherwise my sense of disgust would overtake and there would be burning and there would be pillaging.

If you want to look for experienced people, look to Wendigo, Pocus, Nagot, Jasper, PDF (you'll find them on the french forums more) Alex, Jasper, Windreaper hell, even Zapmeister is more experienced than Stormbinder (Hi Zap) and has more cognitive thought patterns.

I wouldn't base your concept of experience on sheer number of Posts. And I definitely wouldn't trust anyones self-proclaimed opinions about themselves.

With that in mind, I'm not going to weigh in on False Horrors or Caelum. Because certain Dom2 players are like blind men, you are trying to explain what the color the sky is. You can talk all day, but in the end they can't see it and they believe what they want to believe.

[Cainehill]

Cohen said:
Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum ...

And this couldn't be because Maltrease is a good player and because you and the others suck?