Exploit question

[Squirrelloid]

Torin:
That is definitely not my experience with CBM at all.

Nations that want a big bless still take a big bless.

Some starting SC chasses have had their costs increased to make them balanced. Gorgon and PoD come to mind.

Rainbow chasses are generally buffed, making them much stronger choices.

Titan chasses are generally horrible awake SCs. They often need equipment to SC, and you may or may not have the gem income to forge any early. What titans are good at is (1) mid game SCing and (2) bless chasses because they combine a couple paths with high base dominion.

The good starting SC chasses are either made worse in CBM or left unchanged for the most part. Wyrm is unchanged afaik, PoD, Gorgon, and probably Moloch are more expensive, and so on. Cyclops has also been nerfed, and he can potentially SC out of the box (although he really wants a weapon if nothing else).

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Psycho

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Its far too early to tell imo.
CBM 1.6 is for sure not the end of the road.
After lots of games being played out under it,we might see the whole impact no gem gens has on this complex environment and might get a very well balanced CBM 1.7.

For me ,Astral Magic was way too overpowered due to gem gens.
Its all about counters.
There are several ways to counter a strong blood nation for example...since it has to actually defend its territory in order to keep the economy going.Also you cant alchemize your blood slaves and most summons are limited,with often several blood nations fighting for the uniques.
Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?
Now with the bigger maps in Dom3 ,its often very tough to do something against that nation you know that is clam hoarding,but is turtling at the other end of the map.
And those horders can easily use their clams to alchemize to death or Nature,too,for countless tartarians.
So,what i am saying,basically you need water+Nature and probably good astral to stand a chance in any medium to bigger sized maps with gem gens.That IS definately taking away a lot of strategic options for most nations

Talking about Machaka is interesting.
They dont got any Astral and are more in Fever Fetish forging than Clam hoarding.
I seriously think Machaka does a lot better in no gem gens games now simply because other nations cant forge clams.

Btw, i would like to see the fever fetish remaining in the game,with maybe slightly cost increase , anyways.
In addition there has to be some earth booster instead of the blood stone.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?

You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.

[Mardagg]

[quote=Kuritza;723249
You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.[/QUOTE]


That means every single game is built around forging clams,right?
Every single time you build a pretender regardless of the nation u have to think about how to get clams and to cast astral spells.
And even if you plan ahead that way every time,you end up without any chance vs the real astral or clam powerhouses that dont have to rely on path boosters/lucky indie mages for forging or the pretender/indie mages for casting astral rituals.

This is exactly why many nations are nearly unplayable on big maps under vanilla if you are up vs competent opponents.

No gem gens means much more room for nation specific strategies.
Its time to plan ahead DIFFERENTLY,relying on clam hoarding isnt the game winner anymore.

[fantasma]

but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

I don't see any chance to end the game unless there is something completely unbalancing in which you have to invest initially but that develops into an unbeatable juggernaught.

To my - limited - experience clams are competing for much needed N gems, so you give up performance mid-game to achieve the effect. If it were that they cost 15N5W or (15N15W for more difficult path requirements) the initial investment is steep enough so that you have to chose to thug out another guy or forge a clam; ditch the earlier parts of a game just to get to the requirements for eventually snowballing returns.

Some players will do at the risk of getting eliminated early, some will not and might get rolled over in the end. But that is a strategic choice.

To sum it up, what do you think should the end game look like and by what means do you think one should decide the winner?

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Torin

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

This is completely untrue. The titan class pretenders were boosted because they were really bad deals in cbm. They are still not a good choice if you want an early SC. Midgame with decent magic and scales, sure.

[Mardagg]

[quote=fantasma;723253]but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

QUOTE]

You would see....diversity!

And about limited gems...e.g. 200 gems per turn should be still enough for lot of end game action+ you can play bigger maps or increase magic sites if you want more.

-Games may last longer on average,but since the turns take less time to play without microing gem gens,thats ok imo.
-Blood isnt nearly as game breaking as having say 300+astral income per turn.Skipping Blood,or only going very small into it, is perfectly viable imo.Also ,as i said earlier,if more players compete for Blood,Blood becomes weaker bc of the limited summons+you cant alchemize it.
-Game winning globals are very tough to cast without clams.
You would risk to be a lot behind in other areas to do that.
Dont forget,u can still alchemize your other gems for astral if you have to dispel that nasty global,the opponent just put up.
-tartarian commanders will be fewer in numbers,bc wishing for the chalice will be tough,and GoH will only be possible for good nature nations.
-National troops will be more useful in end game since everyone has less powerful magic troops.
-Expansion will probably be more important right from the start,since more provinces=more gems.
Waging war early will become more profitable again,but turtling still remains an option because of superior research.
-Players losing a war and wishing for armageddon before going AI wont be seen.

[Belac]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

You would see....diversity!

And about limited gems...e.g. 200 gems per turn should be still enough for lot of end game action+ you can play bigger maps or increase magic sites if you want more.

-Games may last longer on average,but since the turns take less time to play without microing gem gens,thats ok imo.
-Blood isnt nearly as game breaking as having say 300+astral income per turn.Skipping Blood,or only going very small into it, is perfectly viable imo.Also ,as i said earlier,if more players compete for Blood,Blood becomes weaker bc of the limited summons+you cant alchemize it.
-Game winning globals are very tough to cast without clams.
You would risk to be a lot behind in other areas to do that.
Dont forget,u can still alchemize your other gems for astral if you have to dispel that nasty global,the opponent just put up.
-tartarian commanders will be fewer in numbers,bc wishing for the chalice will be tough,and GoH will only be possible for good nature nations.
-National troops will be more useful in end game since everyone has less powerful magic troops.
-Expansion will probably be more important right from the start,since more provinces=more gems.
Waging war early will become more profitable again,but turtling still remains an option because of superior research.
-Players losing a war and wishing for armageddon before going AI wont be seen.

That sounds awesome, actually. Late-game would be more different for each nation, and nations wouldn't be locked into all the same strategies.

[Baalz]

Yep, I called it. Fell deep into troll territory.

Dominions without gem gens isn't worth playing because you have no options

Everyone is forced to play with the latest version of CBM despite the fact many people wish they could just play vanilla

Nations with troops having obvious weaknesses are unplayable

Come on now, what's the point of trying to argue with somebody who vehemently asserts and defends positions such as these? I would offer to show him that monkey troops can be far from worthless but its pointless. Bandar vs Marginon? Sure, just fight under iron bane for a great equalizer. Toss in a couple other support spells and watch markatas tear the living crap out of dual blessed Knights of the Chalice while any Marignon support mage with more than F1 evaporates under magic duels anytime they step out of a castle. Xbows? Sure, they're pretty good against unsupported monkey PD, but you do realize Bandar has access to everything from arrow fend, storm, mist, and battle fortune to chaff spells like swarm and howl, right? Those xbows firing every other turn doing much for you now against a big swarm of berzerking monkeys? What in the holy hell do you think you're gonna bring to any real fight that is going to win, much less dominate?

But, like I said, it's a pointless discussion. Obviously he's got it all figured out and not interested in considering playing Bandar in anyway other than spamming clams until you have a never ending stream of Rudras. Or, more likely, he's trolling.

[Sombre]

No he'd like to troll but he can't because a select group of players have completely taken out that part of the forums and gang up on anyone who says otherwise.