Newbish question

[thejeff]

Haven't dug into that part of the manual in awhile, but check the morale displayed on units in the Fear area of effect. It definitely drops.

[Endoperez]

Morale definitely lowers defence. It is pretty powerful even without Awe, so it could well force morale checks in addition to that.

[Agrajag]

Endoperez said:
Morale definitely lowers defence.

Huh?

Anyway, the synergy between awe and fear is indeed because it routs PD, not because of morale issues. Even if we assume each 1 fear decreases morale of everyone around by 1 (which it definitely does not), then it's effect on awe is identical to 1 awe, since lowering enemy morale by 1 is equivalent to raising awe by 1.

[JimMorrison]

Okay, I just did some testing. Fear auras have absolutely -ZERO- effect on a unit's morale. Enemy morale gradually went down over the course of the fight, due to losses etc, however there was no direct correlation to the Fear effect whatsoever.

In fact, providence allowed me to take 40 militia against an Onyx Amazon + Nightmares province, and the militia actually held for 3 full rounds against the Nightmares, even with like 20 overlapping Fear effects against them, their morale only dropped from getting cut down like wheat.

Bear in mind, it's possible to gear Fear over 20+ with a D9/10 pretender and items, if they start with Fear. That would basically mean that anything not divine or mindless would pretty much auto route if it got within sight of you, and even 30 morale troops would have trouble attacking through your Awe.

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez just misspoke/mistyped. "Fear definitely lowers morale" is what he meant.

Horror Helmet/Shield of Gleaming Gold is effective against normal troops for basically the same reason. Awe +0 and Fear+0 is easier to get than Awe +4, and to a first approximation they do the same thing.

-Max

P.S. Hmmm, how much fear could you get? I think the PoD is Fear +5 or something normally, before counting Death magic. Give him D10 and he'll be Fear +15. With Horror Helmet, Aegis, and Stymphalian Wings he'll be somewhere north of Fear +30. Am I forgetting anything? Other than the obvious Horror Harmonica, but that's a Fear attack on everyone on the battlefield, which is totally separate and different.

If you're going to rout the enemy army make sure you cast Wind of Death first so they actually DIE too.

P.P.S. Oh yes, you could give him a Lantern Shield in his other hand. Fear +35 at least, unless some of those items are more powerful than I remember. I guess you could give him a Ring of Sorcery and a Ring of Wizardry to boost him to D12, so that's Fear +37. Can't think of anything else.

[MaxWilson]

Jim,

I'm not sure what was going on with your tests. Battle losses don't drop Morale, they affect the bonus that units get for being mostly intact (which doesn't show up on the screen). I don't know why you didn't see a correlation between Fear strength and the morale drop, but it's possible that you don't realize that Fear +X refers to the AREA of fear. The strength of the Fear effect is 1/5 of that, according to KO. Try testing Fear+50 vs. Fear+0 and you'll see it drop quickly, but if you tried Fear+0 vs. Fear+4 you wouldn't see any difference except that 9 squares would be affected instead of 5 (which you probably wouldn't notice).

Multiple overlapping fear effects are indeed fearsome. Frequently troops will rout even against enemies they could easily beat, if the enemies didn't have Fear. That's precisely why Onyx Amazons are so annoying, but it didn't show up in your test because the militia were ALSO getting cut down like wheat (and probably the ones who were within the Fear aura were mostly dead as well as Fear'ed, and thus irrelevant--although you said you did some a morale drop on some of them, and that was from Fear).

-Max

[JimMorrison]

This post was just silly, the next one is much better.

[JimMorrison]

MaxWilson said:
Jim,

I'm not sure what was going on with your tests. Battle losses don't drop Morale, they affect the bonus that units get for being mostly intact (which doesn't show up on the screen). I don't know why you didn't see a correlation between Fear strength and the morale drop, but it's possible that you don't realize that Fear +X refers to the AREA of fear. The strength of the Fear effect is 1/5 of that, according to KO. Try testing Fear+50 vs. Fear+0 and you'll see it drop quickly, but if you tried Fear+0 vs. Fear+4 you wouldn't see any difference except that 9 squares would be affected instead of 5 (which you probably wouldn't notice).

Multiple overlapping fear effects are indeed fearsome. Frequently troops will rout even against enemies they could easily beat, if the enemies didn't have Fear. That's precisely why Onyx Amazons are so annoying, but it didn't show up in your test because the militia were ALSO getting cut down like wheat (and probably the ones who were within the Fear aura were dead as well as Fear'ed, and thus irrelevant).

-Max

Well with a D10 PoD, the turn after he attacks the enemy, they are still at full morale. The turn after that, some are 4 down, some are 6 down, some are 8 down, and some units were alread at -2 or -3 morale.

I can definately assure you that morale erodes over the course of a battle. Every round, more and more units are showing lower scores, which I must attribute to their losses/damage, and the routing of nearby squads.

Though you are entirely correct, I didn't read the entire description of fear (my bad), I put the manual back down after I had confirmed that it states that its purpose is to force a morale check.

[MaxWilson]

In my humble opinion, it would not dominate the game. The enemy commanders wouldn't route because they wouldn't be within your fear aura (AoE 37 is only a 3-4 square radius), so you'd have trouble with undead armies as well as other thugs[1] and mages. I actually think it would be only moderately effective as SCs go, but counting the number of Fear items was an interesting exercise.

-Max

[1] A flying + Gate Cleaver + Boots of Quickness anti-SC thug, for instance, would hit you with 60 HP of damage before you could blink or your Fear aura could take effect. If he had good morale (18-20) he could probably do it a couple more times before routing, too.

[MaxWilson]

JimMorrison said:
Well with a D10 PoD, the turn after he attacks the enemy, they are still at full morale. The turn after that, some are 4 down, some are 6 down, some are 8 down, and some units were alread at -2 or -3 morale.

I can definately assure you that morale erodes over the course of a battle. Every round, more and more units are showing lower scores, which I must attribute to their losses/damage, and the routing of nearby squads.

You should check a normal battle. IME, unless a unit with Fear is involved, the shattered remnants of the army that finally flee have the same Morale that they had at the beginning. When you smash a barbarian horde or a bunch of indies, they still say "Morale: 8" or "Morale: 10". I think a Fear aura is like Soul Vortex or a Chill aura, it kicks in at the beginning of your turn. Only, Fear auras aren't visible.

Turn 1a: Enemies do their thing.
Turn 1b: <Fear>, PoD flies to attack. The Fear doesn't affect the enemies because it comes before they're in range.
Turn 2a: Enemies do their thing.
Turn 2b: <Fear>, PoD attacks. Enemies are down lots of Morale because this time the Fear aura covers them.
Turn 3a: Enemies do their thing or rout.
Turn 3b: <Fear>, PoD attacks.

Etc.

-Max

P.S. If Fear really is like Soul Vortex, you should also note that Quickness makes Soul Vortex happen twice per combat round too.