War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[Exculcator]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
[quote]I beleive you are confusing Asami Bin Laden with the Afgan rebels. Bin Laden had nothing to do that I have ever heard with the Afgan strugle against the former Soviet occupation.
Geoschmo

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Sorry, I am not confused.
Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/214858.shtml

And one from the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...095663,00.html


[This message has been edited by Exculcator (edited 13 September 2001).]

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Exculcator:
Sorry, I am not confused.
Was afraid I was for a minute but here's a recent article on Bin Laden.

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I stand corrected. I was not aware of that. But it does not change the fact that he must be dealt with.

If you own and raise a vicious dog, and one day the dog attacks and kill your children, then you in fact hold much of the ultimate responsibilty. But do you simply fall on the floor and wail "What have I done to my children?" or do you get your gun, and shoot the dog?

I have no doubt that ultimatley this will have serious repurcussions within the our government and our intelligence agencies.

I am sorry dogscoff if I have offended you. I am very angry. We are all very angry. But I am not the only American that feels this way. And many non-Americans feel this way as well.

I cannot believe you would rather have lived these Last 50 years under the oppression of the Axis powers.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

To all of you, especially those from other countries.

I appologize for allowing my anger and my fear for seeping into my Last few Posts. I know many of you live in coutries where these kinds of things are more expected. But the fact is that here, they are not.

Or were not. We Americans have been changed in the Last few days. I hope for the better, but I do not know that for sure. Hopefully our leaders can remain calm in these trying times and only do what is right.

I will try to keep my further Posts here limited to Space Empires.

And I will try to get a hold of myself.

Geoschmo

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
I cannot believe you would rather have lived these Last 50 years under the oppression of the Axis powers.
/QUOTE


At least the trains would run on time... (Rather than crash into one another because the shareholders don't want to pay for safety technology)
/JOKE

Of course I wouldn't, but the US did not win the war on it's own. The European powers fought bravely and suffered hugely because they were defending their homelands.

Credit to the US for coming all the way across the Atlantic to fight an enemy which wasn't a direct or immediate threat, but to take all the credit and say that the world owes you a debt of gratitude for that is absurd. US interests were served well enough by involvement in the European wars, and besides, what about the Canadians who also lost bomber crews and troops? What about the Australians? The Kiwis?

I don't condone Tuesday's actions, of course I don't, but it's very easy for me to see how so much anti- US sentiment could exist.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[Alpha Kodiak]

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
QUOTE:
the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for d
/QUOTE

Is this really what you Americans believe? That the rest of the world owes you a favour because you (eventually) took part in the World Wars? You don't think 50 years of economic supremacy and the assimilation of half the planet into your mindset and culture is reward enough? Someone please tell me he's the only one...

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We're not asking for a favor, we just don't like being kicked while we are down. It is not fun to have thousands of your people die and then have people give reasons for why we are so horrible that we shouldn't do anything about it.

[Alpha Kodiak]

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
To all of you, especially those from other countries.

I appologize for allowing my anger and my fear for seeping into my Last few Posts. I know many of you live in coutries where these kinds of things are more expected. But the fact is that here, they are not.

Or were not. We Americans have been changed in the Last few days. I hope for the better, but I do not know that for sure. Hopefully our leaders can remain calm in these trying times and only do what is right.

I will try to keep my further Posts here limited to Space Empires.

And I will try to get a hold of myself.

Geoschmo

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Geo,

You are not alone. I too am finding it difficult to deal with the current events. It is not the attack that hurts the most, but those who choose to take pot shots at us as we try to deal with this situation. (I'll probably draw some with this post, but I don't care anymore.) I think I will now drop this subject as well. I do not need any more heartburn in my life right at the moment.

[dogscoff]

OK, the meaning of my post has been misunderstood here. It's my own fault for addressing Geoshmoe's "another debt of gratitude" out of the context of his post.

QUOTE:
have thousands of your people die and then have people give reasons for why we are so horrible that we shouldn't do anything about it.
/QUOTE

I never said we were doing you a favour and I nver said you shouldn't do something about terrorism. I was just reacting to Geoschmoe's comment about everyone owing the US a favour (Actually, he said "debt of gratitude". ~Same thing.)

You're right, it doesn't matter where this guy came from, he can't be allowed to continue. (Assuming he actually did it, that is.) By all means defend yourselves, react or counter attack (sensibly) - we'll support you. However it's never enough *just* to react- you have to look at the reasons why it happened in the first place.

I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry.

Take a look at my previous Posts on this thread, you'll see I'm not such a bad guy=-)

*Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 13 September 2001).]

[Askan Nightbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
*Dogscoff orders everyone a reconciliatory beer.

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I'll drink to that.

Askan

[geoschmo]

I'll take that beer Dogscoff. And I'll buy you one too. I have read back over my words, and they were too emptionally charged, and that is why I appologized.

It may in fact be that America owes the world an apology for making this mess by enabling these people to get to where they are today. And if that is the case we are reaping what we have sown.

We may in fact owe the world an apology for delaying our entry into the two World Wars until American blood was shed.

I heard an interview with Sen. Joe Biden Last night, who incidentally is my new hero, where he spoke very eloquently to this fact. I have to paraphrase cause I don't recall all the words, but basically it was to the effect that the American people didn't move when the entire British Army was floating in the Channel (I am assuming he is talking about Dunkirk), but when bombs fell on Pearl, we moved.

I can tell you that personally I am unacustomed to being afraid. I am uncomfortable with the feeling. I don't know if this is an American thing, or just me personnaly. Tuesday I was afraid. Today I am angry.

I live in Ohio. For those of you unfamilier with America this is geographically, and even culturally many miles from New York City. Before Tuesday, New York City often times felt like as much of a foreign city to me as London.

Today I am a New Yorker.

On Monday, and every day prior in my life I looked to the sky and felt safe. I felt that I was master of all that I surveyed.

Of course I was naive, but that is how it was.

Before Tuesday my greatest fear was that another American would kill me for the twenty dollars in my pocket. I never conceived of an attack from outside.

Of course I was naive, but that is how it was.

I will tell you something that was not reported on the national news. On Tuesday afternoon as the President returned to Washington, his plane flew over Ohio. Some fighters esscorting him broke the sound barrier.

We were not warned that this might happen. At the time I was not aware what the noise was. I went outside and saw the contrails in a sky where the news had just told me there were no planes. And for a time I was frightened. My knees were were literally weak.

I was not the master of all I surveyed.

I am no longer naive.

To those that wish to do us harm, and I do not believe anybody who visits this forum is one of those...

If your goal was to make us afraid, you have suceeded.

If you goal was to take away our naivete, you have succeded.

If your goal was to make us angry, you have succeded.

If your goal was to make us weak, you have failed.

Geoschmo

[Exculcator]

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:

I'm sorry for my comments if they have caused offence, particularly since you US ppl have plenty to deal with as it is right now. It's just that this has whole thing has stirred up a lot of US nationalism / patriotism / militarism / moralising, and for some reason that tends to get me into yank-bashing mode immediately. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Sorry.

[/b]

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Same here, sorry.
And I certainly didn't mean that you have no right to do anything.
Hell, go shoot that dog, geoschmo!
Just wanted to say, be sure you shoot the right dog.

Can I have my beer now please..