Sophistry - (Finished) Winner DrPraetorious!

[Lingchih]

Jazzepi said:
How kind of the people of Atlantis to offer their God as food for our endless hordes. I'm sure our brainless chaff will be unable to express their thanks, but rest assured, he will be remembered.

I hope they like Calamari. I know he just loves gibboleth.

[Nix]

Sensori said:
And Agartha, you're gonna love that fortress province. You'll get Wizards from there. Or Enchancers or Warrior Mages, depending what you want. Those trump the crappy Jaguar Tribe Priests you'd get from there regularily.

It'll make a beautiful addition to inner Agartha's appropriately labyrinthine defenses.

I'm personally looking forward to the clash between Helheim and the Pangaean masses. I've been thinking that valley was empty for the entire game, and then when I finally scout it out properly - holy crap that's a lot of satyrs.

[Jazzepi]

Sensori said:
I sent half of all of the gems I had a couple of turns back to Yomi and Atlantis, as they had asked for them first. It was a relatively large amount of them, about a hundred gems of varying types went to both. And now, as death draws closer, I still have some gem income in a besieged fortress. I'm sending the last bits I get to someone whom I consider most deserving, rather than people who managed to say "I want them" first. ;p

And mwahhhahhaa, I managed to pillage at least a couple of regular high income (and high resource) provinces in Helheim's lands. My only regret is that I didn't manage to pillage Marverni itself. And Agartha, you're gonna love that fortress province. You'll get Wizards from there. Or Enchancers or Warrior Mages, depending what you want. Those trump the crappy Jaguar Tribe Priests you'd get from there regularily.

Wow, I find this incredibly irritating. I wish random windfalls would send me an extra 100 gems. It'd be different if Atlantis and whatever nation Sensori was playing were allied against some nation, but to just randomly give them out because they "asked for them first"?

Please. Just die with your gems instead of unbalancing the game for the rest of us. Some of us don't have benefactors to just send us tons of gems.

Jazzepi

[Sensori]

Jazzepi said:

Wow, I find this incredibly irritating. I wish random windfalls would send me an extra 100 gems. It'd be different if Atlantis and whatever nation Sensori was playing were allied against some nation, but to just randomly give them out because they "asked for them first"?

I do (and did) with my gems what I want, especially now that I'm being put six feet under. I gave the same amount of gems to Yomi, so my gems didn't ALL go to one nation. What they do with them now is their business. When I posted the half/half thing I had far less gems and didn't quite expect to have as many of them as I ended up having, but a promise is a promise. I said I'd give them my gems fifty-fifty, and I did. Simple as that.

I hate it a lot more when people just die silently and give stuff to others under the counter, so that you might ever find out it even happened is if the guy who received things says so. But apparently others like it that way. At least now I know to just keep my mouth shut next time. Ignorance is bliss!

Please. Just die with your gems instead of unbalancing the game for the rest of us. Some of us don't have benefactors to just send us tons of gems.

Hey, Helheim taking over my capital is also "unbalancing", and Agartha eating up the other half (which was oddly gem site rich, I might add) is just as much "unbalancing". They got one fortress per, gem sites and so on. Helheim even got my capital completely intact. I think spreading the "unbalance" caused by my death to four nations instead of just two is actually a good thing. And hundred random gems (of which most were air gems, by the way) isn't quite as unbalancing in the long run than having a bunch more (gem rich) provinces than you would otherwise have because you ate up someone.

You see it as unbalancing (well, duh, I quite directly helped your enemy, of course you'll see it as a bad thing). I see it as the following: At the very least my short presence will be felt in the game even after my nation's death, and not only in the form of a much stronger Helheim. And maybe Agartha.

[Jazzepi]

Except for the fact that both the nations that gobbled up your territories had to earn it. Atlantis, and Yomi, did absolutely nothing to deserve getting 100 random gems. My problem isn't that either Argatha or Helheim is ahead in the race to win the game, my problem is you just gave the person I'm attacking gems for no reason. So all you've done is disrupted the power balance between our two nations.

Jazzepi

[Sensori]

Had to earn it? Don't make me laugh. 10 times out of 10, Marverni loses to Helheim's rush. No matter what you do as Marverni that early, you're about as hard for Helheim to just run over as indie provinces. Nice lil snack for minimum effort. You know how many Helhirdings and Valkyries I killed in the entirety of the war? Like... 5 in total, if not less. And that took the combined effort of my entire, remaining, army. Which also happened to be the largest army I had during the entire war. I take great pride in the fact that I actually managed to do SOMETHING to Helheim by pillaging a few provinces, because, you know, I was completely outclassed.

Helheim just had to be at the right place (be a neighbor of Marverni). Agartha had to be at the right place at the right time (be a neighbor of Marverni and be at a perfect position when Helheim rushes said nation). Atlantis and Yomi did do something to deserve said 100 gems. They were the first ones to say that they wanted the halves I was going to give away anyway. Their effort was, from my point of view, about comparable to that of the two nations that actually are offing me.

Obviously you would've preferred if I just had kept my mouth shut and let you fight Atlantis without knowing about any additional pyl... Gems. Point taken, next time I won't say a word. ;p

[Jazzepi]

Marverni being a weak nation is irrelevant to the point at hand. You've skewed the balance of power, by some amount large or small, by throwing your gems to random people.

If you're so upset that you got Marverni in a game with random nations then you should go complain to the devs about the power balance of the nation, not attempt to ruin it for the rest of us because you randomly got placed next to Helheim with a weak nation.

Jazzepi

[Sensori]

Huh? You're trying to turn this into me being upset about something?

...

Let's rewind a little.

I've had fun with what little I've had, trying to postpone my imminent demise while killing people in Helheim's provinces (ha ha, that's a couple less provinces for him to use for blood slaves later on!). I'm not upset about the fact that Marverni's weak in early game, I actually already like the nation. And as I see it, the more I can spread the lub of Marverni the better. At the point I made the whole "who wants half of my gems?" thing, I also had so few of them that cutting it up to 1/4ths would've made the amount completely laughable. This is what you have a problem with. However, this is completely supported by the game itself.

You say you are upset about me saying that I sent my gems out to people who were selected on first come first served basis, which is somewhat random, sure. Truth is, you got upset only after you learned the number of the gems (hundred zomg), and are making it damn obvious to me that you would've been perfectly happy with me being completely silent about the gems after asking about who'd want them the way I did, which is quite stupid from my point of view, although it seems to be the norm in the game. Ignorance is bliss. As I said, I've taken your (strange) point and will never ever say a word about possible sendings of gems to anyone when I lose again.

Indeed, from this little convo we've been having I think it's YOU who should be complaining to the devs about a built-in feature that's making you get all upset. MY gems, MY choice to give them away the way I want. NOT YOURS.

[Jazzepi]

Actually, I had no idea you had done this until I read it in a post 3 up. I didn't even see the call for people to line up to get free gems, or I would have said something then.

My problem is with the fact that you're not even involved in the conflict between Ry'leh and Atlantis. You have no ties to it, for all I know, Maverni is on the other corner of the map, but for some reason the person I'm fighting against suddenly has an extra hundred gems for no reason other than a quick forum post?

What if it was an extra 3000 gold? What if someone had staled 3-4 turns, had huge coffers and just felt like giving them out?

And of course they're *your* gems. I don't think that there should be any literal control over how they're sent, or who they can be sent to, but my problem isn't with that. I don't think that the devs should build anything into the game. My problem is that you're pissing my cheerios because you want to have some sort of last huzzah before you're wiped out of the game.

>MY gems, MY choice to give them away the way I want. NOT YOURS.

Just because they're your gems doesn't mean you should do anything you want with them. Theoretically, I could sign up for a game you're in, farm up a couple thousand gold, then give it to one of your opponents. Of course it would be MY gold, but that doesn't mean I SHOULD do all the things I CAN do with it. Do you see the difference?

Jazzepi

[Sensori]

Jazzepi said:
Actually, I had no idea you had done this until I read it in a post 3 up.

What have we learned, kids? It pays to follow the goings on in the thread, after all.

My problem is with the fact that you're not even involved in the conflict between Ry'leh and Atlantis.

Yep. Not involved in any shape or form. Note how there was no war when Atlantis said "gimme!". Otherwise I might've reconsidered giving them to him. Well, guess he got lucky.

-- for some reason the person I'm fighting against suddenly has an extra hundred gems for no reason other than a quick forum post?

Luck's fickle fate.

What if it was an extra 3000 gold? What if someone had staled 3-4 turns, had huge coffers and just felt like giving them out?

*I* didn't have huge coffers of anything when I did the thing. Thank Helheim for taking me out a lot slower than I thought he would. ;p And 100 random gems isn't exactly a lot, especially when you've been getting more gems than Atlantis on a regular basis for, like, ever, according to the graphs. Probably even closer to types you actually use. In fact I'd say that Atlantis receiving the gems only tipped the balance of power more into status "balance" rather than "imbalance".

If I had 3000 gold, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now would I. Ohh... What would I have given for 3000 gold... That would've had my war machine working a little longer.

And you know, these "what ifs" are kind of lame IMO. What if someone was winning the game, had 50:1 provinces compared to everyone, BUT THEN SURRENDERED? :O What if USSR was still standing? What if the nazis had won the 2nd World War?! What if that guy's mother is actually his father?!??!

Seriously though, if someone felt like giving out gems or money for whatever reason, well. That's their choice. If they aren't actually losing or anything, it's like saying... "Here are the keys to victory. Now look as I throw them away." It may suck to the players who didn't receive anything if they actually needed it, but that's how it is. Do you consider inviting another player to conquer some of your provinces before the aggressor manages to take over all of it imbalancing, too? Since as far as I know, that happens. Often.

My problem is that you're pissing my cheerios because you want to have some sort of last huzzah before you're wiped out of the game.

This "me pissing in your cheerios" happened because you happened to start fighting with a side that happened to be one of the two who said "gimme!" when I asked about giving out the gems. If you actually read the thread at any relatively constant rate, you would've managed to predict this. It is hardly my fault that you are fighting Atlantis rather than Oceania.

Just because they're your gems doesn't mean you should do anything you want with them.

Should? Not really. Only thing that's a "should" in this world is dying. ;p Could? Yes. Wanted to? Hell yes. I'm dead. If the only thing I can do to help someone else, even a random nation, to win, is giving gems, I'll do it. At least later, if that side happens to win, I can think that my sacrifice had some part in that victory. A small part, but still a part.

Theoretically, I could sign up for a game you're in, farm up a couple thousand gold, then give it to one of your opponents.

In practice, one thing is griefing and the other one is not. I didn't give them to Atlantis because he's YOUR opponent. I have nothing against you. He just happened to be one of the two people to say "gimme!" when I asked. Not to mention that couple of thousand of gold isn't quite comparable to hundred random gems of which most aren't even usable by the recipient, which will have to be alchemized, dropping the actual number of gems to half. If he wanted to turn them into gold, it'd be closer to 25 fire gems then.

Not to mention that I may have exaggerated the actual number a little. ;p It's closer to 100 than 50, and most of them (~50%, probably over) were air gems, is all I can remember. All in all, I think if I had just wanted to actually affect the game's balance the most, I would've thrown the air gems (all of them) to Caelum or equivalent and so forth. Note how I did not do that.