The next patch - Page 17

Jasper · #**161** April 7th, 2004, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
So why aren't the clam hoarders getting steamrolled when they dump half their total gem income into clams and then dump the clam income into more clams?

Well, in my experience they do get steamrollered. This isn't a convincing argument however, as one can always wrangle endlessly about who's competition is better and who's really the better player, so I left it out (and I am _not_ presenting it as an argument now).

Plus, while I am confident I have some skill, I know there are players with far more experience than I. Wendigo, NGF (Jaques Vidal?), Alex Poger, and Pocus/Pythie spring immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are others as well.

Zapmeister · #**162** April 7th, 2004, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Except that this is not, as you suggest, making astral clams "a bit harder" to make - it is making them much, much, harder to make for most nations due to lacking paths and increasing their cost by 50%

Is this a good time to mention my preferred solution (water-1,nature-1) again?

Minrhael · #**163** April 7th, 2004, 04:12 AM

Let me preface my idea by saying I haven't even gotten into an MP game yet. Since it seems most people don't want clams too heavily penalized, would it be possible to change clams into one of the artifact types that don't stack? (like, if I remember right, 2 wineskins only allow 25 supply bonus not 50 if on one commander). Then at least the initial recruiting and upkeep costs of the hoarder would increase and they'd be slowed a little by a need to recruit more commanders. If that wouldn't be enough deterrent you could combine it with one of the previous posters suggestions to make it have a %chance of success, though I'd say 25% is a bit low.

If only one clam worked per commander and it only worked 50 - 75% of the time I'd think that would slow them down enough. I don't like 25% as the clam would then be pretty useless to commanders in the field who just want a gem or two to cast battlefield spells without having to put up a lab.

Alexander Seil · #**164** April 7th, 2004, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Keep in mind that many MP games, people turn off the graphs, and I can see why, even if I prefer the graphs.

First, as you say - it allows you to know everyone's army sizes. Their magical research. The number of provinces. Why? (This is more of a complaint to Illwinter, mind you.)

Most similar strategy games only only you see see the other nations/races/competitors progress if you have made contact with them. Some, only if you have spies or other diplomatic presence in their capitols - I wish Illwinter would do something along those lines, because as is, the graphs provide way too much information (in the military intelligence sense) for free.

Just to illustrate the absurdity of this - think of Vanheim, or Pangaea. You can't even _see_ their troops, but somehow you know their military strength? The graphs, as they are, are fine for SP games, but not for MP.

So? You could simply disable the graphs. Besides, as far as "military intelligence sense" goes, it's not like army commanders, modern or ancient, didn't know locations (and thus the number) of major enemy fortifications or the general composition and size of their enemies' forces. In Dom2, however, you don't even have reliable information as to the physical location of the other nation, let alone their army movements or positions of their forts, unless you actually send spies out to investigate.

[ April 07, 2004, 03:51: Message edited by: Alexander Seil ]

Graeme Dice · #**165** April 8th, 2004, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
It all comes down to Wish.

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is correct. Wish for example, allows you to buff a vampire queen up to 150 hitpoints, with all stats (other than MR) in the 30's. With decent items, it can become a nightmare to kill such a beast.

Cainehill · #**166** April 9th, 2004, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander Seil:

quote:
Originally posted by Cainehill:
Just to illustrate the absurdity of this - think of Vanheim, or Pangaea. You can't even _see_ their troops, but somehow you know their military strength? The graphs, as they are, are fine for SP games, but not for MP.

So? You could simply disable the graphs. Besides, as far as "military intelligence sense" goes, it's not like army commanders, modern or ancient, didn't know locations (and thus the number) of major enemy fortifications or the general composition and size of their enemies' forces. In Dom2, however, you don't even have reliable information as to the physical location of the other nation, let alone their army movements or positions of their forts, unless you actually send spies out to investigate.

You missed the gist of my point, such as it was.

Other people were saying that you could, by looking at the graphs, tell if someone was hiding away just building clams, and set forth to wallop them before the clam-hoarding turns into Wishing.

Which isn't possible if the graphs are turned off, and as I attempted to point out, there's many reasons why the graphs would be turned off in a MP game.

Truper · #**167** April 9th, 2004, 12:22 AM

Clams, clams, clams, clams,
Clams, clams, clams, clams,
Lovely clams, wondeful claaaams!

AhhhFresh · #**168** April 9th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
It all comes down to Wish.

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is correct. Wish for example, allows you to buff a vampire queen up to 150 hitpoints, with all stats (other than MR) in the 30's. With decent items, it can become a nightmare to kill such a beast.

So we see that Zen is smarter than we think he is.

(No offense Zen)

Obviously I agree, since I posted the original quote... but allow me to expound.

Clams are nice, Clams are good... I make them myself. But what do they really do?

They let you chain cast WISH while possibly having an unassuming amount of territory in an MP game. IE You can come out of nowhere and win the game... because that is what WISH was meant to do. Change the game.

We're talking a Vampire Queen every turn.

The old rules don't apply.

HOWEVER

If you can't cast WISH what now? Well, you can chaincast Ethergate, which is pretty sweet... but not worth it. I love Ethergate, but I can't imagine commiting that much, if all I'm gonna get is a buncha big dudes with moonblades.

You can also convert those pearls to other denominations pretty easily... which is nice, but not a game breaker.

[ April 08, 2004, 23:28: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Nephelim · #**169** April 9th, 2004, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
We're talking a Vampire Queen every turn.

Hrm... Why a vampire queen instead of a doom horror?

I played with wish a bit, and really couldn't find a better bang for my buck than a doom horror... GOR him and send him to take just about anything. Stat move of 10, and apparently impossible to kill. If he had hand slots he could take fortresses with a couple gate cleavers... sadly, he does not.

Is there some fatal flaw in the doom horror that I haven't seen? I generally give him a pendant of luck and an amulet of magic resistance.

Well, I often don't get up to wish before a game is over, so 'generally' might not be accurate.

Yes, these are SP games... My skills aren't up to taking on human opponents yet..

Zapmeister · #**170** April 9th, 2004, 01:47 AM

The thing about WISH is that it has a seriously high coolness factor. It would be a real pity to lose it, and I would prefer any other solution that works.

Maybe alter the wishes themselves? No more asking for specific creature types - maybe you could wish for a "saviour" or somesuch, and get a random creature from a pool of pretty-good critters.

Maybe also do something about chain-casting Armageddon. In general, have wishes that improve the position of the wisher, rather than trashing everyone else.

Or just make clams water-1, nature-1