Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by psimancer:
i suspect most of them of being raised in a environment devoid of corporeal punishment
which means their personal developement is approximatly 30 years behind (once they hit 60 they might finally gain some common sense but i wont make book on it)

Isn't there a ironic smiley missing? If not I would suggest you better not raise children in Germany. Corporeal punishment of humans of any age (0-99 years) is a crime, even for parents, and you WILL get convicted for it (I have first hand knowledge as a co-Judge during my court stage).

[Baron Munchausen]

This view of child-rearing is unfortunately still very prevalent in the US, Mephisto. It might not be the 'majority' view anymore but it's still quite common. The readiness to use raw force in basic family life might have something to do with the over-use of raw force in our international policies, too.

[Urendi Maleldil]

I don't think a good spanking is corporal punishment. That's just discipline. Corporal punishment is when the teacher whacks you across the knuckles with a yardstick.

The real discipline problem is with families. A good chunk of the people I know come from divorced or crumbling homes. Kids need good moms and dads who teach with love and a strong hand. There just aren't that many of them anymore.

It's going to suck when they grow up to be presidents and world leaders... oh wait.

[geoschmo]

Despite my pre-conceived opinion about Moore, I actually would like to go see the movie. I appreciate hearing opinions that conflict with my own, and if nothing else I'm sure it would be good for a few laughs. However, I can't sit through the graphic scenes. I understand he's got scenes of dead and mutilated Iraqi's as well one of the hostage beheadings. While I can understand why he feels the need to show this for shock value or whatever, I don't need proof that war is hell.

Graphic imagary is quite shocking and compelling on an emotional level, but it does nothing to put forward a rational discussion of the issues and events around the descision to go to war.

No sane person loves war. But sane people can come to the conclusion that war is sometimes neccesary. Moore could have made the argument against the neccesity of the war without the graphic images. If he had I probably would have gone to see it.

[ June 29, 2004, 02:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Abdiel]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
This view of child-rearing is unfortunately still very prevalent in the US, Mephisto. It might not be the 'majority' view anymore but it's still quite common. The readiness to use raw force in basic family life might have something to do with the over-use of raw force in our international policies, too.

I totally reject that analogy. Spanking a child for disciplinary purpose is a whole world from invading a (not your child even) country for whatever reasons. If so, N Korea and Iran would have been hit a long time ago, instead of Iraq.

We should look for reasons outside of the Freudian world, which is totally ambiguous with its use of extrapolation out of (in this case) a completely unrelated historical incident(s).

Abd.

[Baron Munchausen]

Freud didn't originate the idea that childhood experience shapes the adult, so trying to associate my 'analogy' with Freud is not going to discredit it.

[Abdiel]

Fair enough. But argument by analogy is, in every case, a point for contention. And anyone can simply reject such an argument out of hand, philosophically.

Let's reword it to "Freud-esque" if that suits you better. But to link discipline in the family, being on the receiving end as a child, to the child as an adult tending towards military force... Now that's not such a clear-cut case.

Abd.

[psimancer]

i define corporal punishment as the use of spanking in a controlled and fair manner
unfortunatl as a youth i was not the most obedient nor respectful person
my father did not permit a disrespctful attitude in word or deed to him or more importantly my mother 1 warning 3 noncorporeal punishment chances and then corporeal punishment (spankings )

and he never allowed temper to interfere with punishment (better known as he had me stuck in my room until they deciced on what form of punishment and to what level )talk about anticipation
i mean 8 hours waiting when i truly ticked him off

as far the the ironic smiley ......no its not missing
i have observed in several individuals continued immature behavior and attitudes espially regarding what the world and their family owes them form their early years (11) to now (27) these observations aae of so far 4 girls and 6 boys who are children of family friends whom at least one parent believes that spanking is detrimental to the development of the child in all cases so far i hae seen a pattern of the child remaining in the parents house and usually being supported by the parent with little or no attempts to support themselves with excuses about the unfair treatment they recieve etc

oh and mephisto heres the bad part my father was raised in germany until he was 6 years old his stepfather's name ...keiser a cuban german
my national background a full third german

in america a child or an advocate can sue or remove the children of a parent for just spanking i know of one woman in ohio who has had this happen
i view it as follows
it is my responsibility as a perent to provide my child the best guidance as i can and the knowledge of the consequences of their actions is a part of thaat responsibility no man or woman can take away these responsibilities they can only take my children and if they do so then they are causing they same damage to my children as if i did not provide the guidance in the first place

baron well i suggest you might consider that many parents are just not discussing their attitudes openly any longer as the long term affects of spanking vs not spanking are easily determined by examination of the atitudes and behaviors of a large enough sample of the american population it is easily demonstrated that in the average not spanking tends to slow the maturation of the individual personality into a responsible adult in american society
however in european society this may be different as the cultual differences may provide suffecient alternate forms of instruction

[ June 29, 2004, 07:50: Message edited by: psimancer ]

[Will]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Despite my pre-conceived opinion about Moore, I actually would like to go see the movie. I appreciate hearing opinions that conflict with my own, and if nothing else I'm sure it would be good for a few laughs. However, I can't sit through the graphic scenes. I understand he's got scenes of dead and mutilated Iraqi's as well one of the hostage beheadings. While I can understand why he feels the need to show this for shock value or whatever, I don't need proof that war is hell.

The graphic scenes are fairly brief. Probably the most graphic images is a approximately 10-second sequence depicting Iraqis dragging incinerated bodies (I'm pretty sure they're soldiers hit with a firebomb) through a street, then suspending them from street lights. The beheading scene is from footage that is several years old, and very grainy; I could only tell that it was a beheading from the text on the screen, since it looked more like a person getting hit with a baseball bat. The rest of the bloody scenes are fairly minor (IMHO, this may be from watching surgery/ER documentaries from a fairly young age), and most of it you can pretty much turn your head away from (the exception being the opening sequence, with black screen and audio from the hijackings).

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by psimancer:
it is my responsibility as a perent to provide my child the best guidance as i can and the knowledge of the consequences of their actions is a part of that responsibility no man or woman can take away these responsibilities they can only take my children and if they do so then they are causing they same damage to my children as if i did not provide the guidance in the first place.

You know, these lines you said could be copied from the German Constitution.
However, misconduct is still no excuse to punish another human with physical means.
BTW: I have never ever in my entire live been hit by my parents, never ever. And I very well do support myself, support others during my Paramedic job and support some of my relatives which got permanently ill. So much for the spanking theory.