AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent

[JLS]

Originally posted by desdinova:
question on finite games, i havent played one in a while. i know that each turn your resources drop. is it based on the amount you mine or a fixed amount each turn? if it is based on the amount you mine then using the urban centers would be even more useful since they dont mine but generate resources thru trade and other means. then adding on the industrial center and other bonus generation complexes would seem to be even more beneficial since they wont increase the rate of resource loss either.
EDIT: oops, i am wrong, they do use mining for part of their resource generation but then use other means for bonus resource generation. still they sound better than just mining facilities since some of their resource generation comes from other means

Exactly, a fair amount of Resource depletion was setup on each Urban Community as to retain that feeling of any lost and forever bad investments in a Finite game, and to retain somewhat a decline in a Planets Potential.
Total-Trade=Resource Generation. This is the facilities depletion amount.

However the Trade and Commercial income is free and you are correct does not Deplete a Planets Resource Potential.

High out put facilities that are used in the Resource Extraction and Mining Outpost Catagory etc, will deplete a planet relatively fast.

[ May 05, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by SunDevil:

-I am putting together a mod that increases the size of the planets, adding more facilities to be built, increasing the amount of resources it takes to build facilities, components and ships, and then adding the star wars race packs to the game. I have always felt that this game ("the stock Version not a mod Version.") really limits the options of planets and the amount of space and choices that are available to add facilites. The mod I am putting together is just a collection of ideas to test them out to see if it is possible within this game's structure and ai capacity to work.

The reason why I am using your mod as a base, is since you already have the ai working well, I just wanted to add my changes and not have to rework the ai to much.

I like it , I would like to help if, possible from time to time.

I haven't been on this board for a very long time. Could you explain more about tactical or partial fighter move concept.

I designed the Tactical Fighter mod for AIC because the AI does a poor job with Fighter inter system travel, actually it does nothing. TFM was designed to balance this, as it turns out it works out very nicely with Fighter Stacking as well.

PvKs Version; I believe will be more in line of an Excellent Compromise , where in early stages the Fighters will move in Tactical only then with some advanced research move as default se4. The only way to go in Multiplayer and has much merit in Solitaire Play, assuming the AI has time to Research and setup sufficient Point Defenses.

Other wise as it is in base se4, this is not good for the AI because the Human player can anchor his fleet just one sect away for the AI Home World and BLast his Planet to bits with waves of fighters then follow up with the Troops. With no recourse to his Carriers or Troop Ships.

In Tactical, the Human Player must Commit; possibly with a lose; in some, most or all his ships, most certainly a loss to some, most or ALL Troopships…

- Designing a new race, or an existing one that is not in your mod? I wouldn't mind doing the star wars races, but then again Andrés Lescano has done great work on this already.

Agreed, now that I know what your goals are, Andrés Lescano has done an Awesome Job, why change anything.

Also the AIC files are not the same as another mods and visa versa or base se4.
For example. The design component calls are not in sequence with the other Files.
Most AI setting are based on the AIC maps.
Which are tied into the Quad and SyS files.
Anger files are also related to AI design and Planet type strengths.
The all General files have Tie Ins.
The Trait file has Tie Ins.
All construction Files must be AIC conformed.
The Component File Has Tie Ins.
The Facility File has Tie Ins.
The Vehical File Tie Ins.
Basicly every file must be related.

My god, good luck

[ May 05, 2003, 23:13: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Pocus]

Just tested a bit the mod. Can I use Starliners to transport units, or is it an house rules to not do so?

Also, will AI really uses the troops it build, or will it glasses planet blindy? I doubt a bit that you can teach them to not kill all pop.

[klausD]

I just played AIC the first time and I think I like it so far. But I dont understand why the AI has several Thousands! of units (I play with visible scores) after just some turns. Is this a bug or is this a "feature" of the mod? (I looked at the vehiclesiz.txt and the AI balance data indicated that eg AI-fighters cost only 1 mineral or so, while human players pay 10 - but I am not sure if this is the reason of so many AI-units)

maybe one of you could give me some info about this. Thanks alot.
KlausD

[JLS]

Originally posted by SunDevil:

1. You have put together a great mod, it is a shame that I spent the Last four days on putting together my personal mod, and now after already including and implementing four other mods realize that your mod will most likely not be compatible with all my work. So now I am going to have to use your mod as a base and then make any additions or changes to that. I wish I would of analyzed your mod a couple of days ago and saved me some work but oh well. You have definitely put together a great mod.

Thank You very much SunDevil

What will be the new Premise or Concepts of your new MOD; that you will be using AIC as a Base for?

For example: PvK promises to be coming out with a semi tactical Fighter Modifications that allows Partial to full fighter Movement for his Proportions Mod and it sounds fascinating. He has asked me to wait, and I am sure his improvements; will be well worth the wait. If not released soon by PvK; some players have asked me to install an alternate fighter movement until PvK’s release, and one must be thrown togeather.
I will tie this thru the AIC setup Traits menu or tech cancel menu for v3.00 next month. In a way for Human Players to choose between Tactical or Partial Fighter Move.
The AI will be set to Tactical only but may have the option if I do this thru traits menu.
What are your thoughts on this?

Version 3.00 AIC; due out next month. I still need to expanded Component, Facility and Tech tree.
And the AI toned down even a little more.
But first. Public Play will determine the Mid and End Game by there feed back of averaged play.
Allowing me to get the Right Techs out; at evolutionarily, the right time
For example: If Race A has access to the {Silver Bullet} weapon, then I must make sure that race B has the time to at least have the [option] available to counter the {Silver Bullet} weapon before I add seventeen tech levels to it.

All the se4 original races will be added as well.
Atrocities has authorized that I may do a Star Trek AI, for AIC.
The Credits file Completed.
QBrigid is going to go over the Read Me file and neaten it up.
And much more
=======

3. Minor question: In the settings.txt file you have cd music set to false and was just wondering if there was an issue to switch this back to true?

AI Campaign crunches more numbers then base se4 and most other Mods so I defaulted CD music to off.

Depends on your systems resources and your desires.
Most play with music off after a while.
Sure, turn it on, if you like
=======

2. I am just curious during your research why you decided to create a tech for ai advantage and neutral advantage. I also have noticed in your vehiclesize.txt file that some of the resource values for some ships are different for the human player and the ai player.

In regards to Advantage, the Human Player has some extra choices in the Traits Menu to taylor their game before starting.

As this applies to the AI; as you can see, my programming allows the Trait to be an extra:
(2) a throttle for the AI Supply Range and (3) Throttle for AI Production.
Throttles may be fine tuned (in file) by the Players or Myself.

Other then that, there is no such (Advantage tech) area.
~~~
In regards to AI Balance Tech. My programming here is the Cornerstone for the AI in AIC’s AI Balance MOD as it Ties every aspect together.
It now offers the AI the Abilities to better sweep mines, Planetary Bombardment, Sector Scanning etc. In regard to AI Productive Stellar Manipulations and Transports pop, sat & mine launchers etc. I do want it low. But in regards to AI Offensive SM it is the same as Humans (use it or loose it) do to se4 engine programming the AI can not Moth Ball as Humans do, I am able to reduce there costs so they may build the device even though they may never use them, since the only trigger for the AI to Build vehicles is the way the Modder sets up the MODS Construction File. As Master Belisarius has said and in which many of us agree and hope for, is that the AI will get triggers with some intuition in the next se5 engine.

AI Balance tech is really not their for the AI advantage, unless you think the AI should be pined behind a Human Player mine field or sacrifice ship after ship banging its head against it. Same applies to Resupply, thru the se4engine the AI must turn back for resupply at an early condition, were as the Human Player can Calculate the next fuel stop and get there on vapors.

Same applies ~"~,well, AI Balance Mod attempts to address several other areas, as you can see.
~~~

In regards Neutral Balance; as you notice it is a disadvantage not an advantage. This is for the Neutrals only to have Smaller Home Worlds so they are weaker then the Rest of the AI from the go.
This helps with AI diplomacy and a few other areas in AIC. Also if the Neutrals Home Word is captured it is not as big of a Hit to the overall advantage of the capturing Race and there are a few more tie ins with my programming.

A future Neutral Ship Set or AI designer now also has the ability to add a Racial Trait or some Characteristics. With this disadvantage in place; the Neutral turning will not be turned into a Power

As I did with the Nultoh Group by adding Psychic Trait, just to match his eyes

Name := NEU
Description := !ONLY AI SHOULD TO TAKE THIS TRAIT! For Neutral AI Pre-Game Point Set up.
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Disadvantage
Cost := -1600
Trait Type := Planet Storage Space
Value 1 := -20
Value 2 := 0

I hope my explanations, were helpful?
~~~

In regards to the vehiclesize.txt file in respect with your expressed question and as it applies to the AI in AIC, this is primarily a progression of settings to the AI for the:
{LATE END GAME} AI SHIP THROTTLE and must be reset with extreme CAUTION…
The setteings will determine a 1000 turn game going bust by an over bearing AI or a cake walk for the Human Player, both; a very poor situation for a designer. So go with the averages here.

My goal here (initially) is for the AI to beat the Solitaire Human Player 1 out of 3 games or better when END GAME play is reached.
~
2: The AI to win Two out of Three when in the Mid Game and/if the Human wants to try the bonsai approach on the AI.

3: The AI to win Three out of Five games in the opening when a Violent AI is adjacent to a Human Player.
If this is the case, in a random game and the Human Player is in adjacent systems, the Human has less then 50 Turns {5years} to get his act together for the most part, when next to the HIVE, Crystalline etc. as if it was next door to a Human Player; we can’t see to many Human Players as I giving to much quarter to another Human Players, what would you say?

In the above scenario. The Human Player only Priority MUST build a strong defense and or offence to counter the neighboring Violent AI race and if so the Human Player May have the WIN if not he will loose.
All the Computers and Infrastructure Techs will not save him in the early game. I doubt a Central Computer will do much damage to the AIs hull.
In regards to increased infrastructure just neater buildings for the AI to capture or glass.

I also have less apparent events that may occur during your AIC game
By design and by
'Wow', get a look at that, what made that happen

~~~
Sundevil, can you give me a hand designing a race or two for me, if so please choose one to your tastes that I have not done and use an existing as a template… Grand Lord Vito wants to do the Praetorians so any other would be a big help towards Version v3.00 the Final Release of AI Campaign with the [se4 v1.84] engine.

[ May 05, 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

I like Finite but I don’t like No Warp games

The Religious Culture Center is way to powerful

The abundant organics are neat trick

[ May 06, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[JLS]

Whats this I see about you pulling a fast one on the AI…
What, you wont give Queen Triana of the Sergetti Empire, her revenge.
She will warp in on you, anyway

Or is it that you are afraid to get beat by a Lassie especially an AI Lassie
~~~

What is it, about No Warp games you dislike?


The Religious Culture Center is a wee powerful in Non Finite, and this Version is designed Primarily for Solitaire.
Also only Human Players get a Religious CC.

Impressions are so far, is that the Religious trait is well received.



[ May 08, 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

[SunDevil]

JLS,

When I start a game and it doesn't matter which race I pick, it seems that my homeworld is full of cultural centers. I can assume that the ai's homeworld is then also filled with cultrual centers and was wondering if it was beneficial for my homeworld to be full of cultural centers or should I recycle some and get more resources and build something else? And does the ai sooner or later recycle some of their cultural centers and rebuild something else? Thanks.

[JLS]

Good Question, SunDevil

This is true, you do have several Culture Centers types and each will have its own special abilities in AIC; depending on your Racial Traits chosen when you started your Character.

In most games when started; you may have up to 3 quick viable scraps.

1: Distribution Center. This is inherent with the CC and should be Scraped at your earliest Convenience.

2: Space Dock. This is also inherent with the CC and should be Scraped at your earliest Convenience.

~Tip~ Possibly a research expedition, an advanced Settlements that can be upgraded to Towns and Cities, Computers, Planetary Shields, a needed Resource Colony, Planet Value Plants, etc. may be built as new Construction for above.

3: Space Yard Facility. This will require more thought as it applies to your current games events and Progress. For example: what is your current Ship Yard rate on your BSYs orbiting the Home World. Do you have a few Construction Colonies already built up and the Home Worlds Space Yard is now possably redundant and a newly acquired Devise or Facility may be far more profitable and/or beneficial
A lot of players like to make tough Decisions and do like this aspect

It is possible to Set up AIC to have less Cultural Centers, what would you suggest be added in its Place. In the start of the game there is no facility near as Productive as your Home Lands Population Center, just as it is with Europe, the Americas, Asia~ well, all the continents in our World.

Now as time goes on in your AIC game, you may find other viable reasons to rebuild a Structure, in the Place of what may become an old and antiquated Population Center.

~Hint~ When you scrap a Home Worlds Culture Center you will have the benefit of its very conducive Recycle Value. When in a jam this could be a Last Mobilization effort.

However this is also arranged in AI Campaign as an evolutionary choice. You must reach an Infrastructure Capability to except this premium fully. It is also best to have a cost-per-effect alternative build.


[ May 09, 2003, 00:15: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

I never knew how to save a turn before, in a way I could always go back to that spot, in a simultaneous game before you posted that. Works for me

Also, what’s this I see about you pulling a fast one on the AI…
What, you wont give Queen Triana of the Sergetti Empire, her revenge.

She will warp in on you, anyway.

With all this time into the game, just to warp in on a bad guy. Besides this was my first No Warp game. Its fun and it is sure scary not knowing what Pandora’s box that you will be open in the next System.

Sergetti has not warped in, she will be in for a surprise when she does.

I think my biggest problem with my No Warp game is I set for many AI Players. Should of left it at default.

When this game is finished, I am going to go back to just Finite, with out question, AI Campaign is the best way to play Finite in any form.

If only Human Players get a Religious CC then I guess it is ok. It is great in Finite no doubt here. I will finish this game then play AIC in just Finite mode and let you know.

I usually build a few towns then upgrade all the way to the New CCs late in the game to replace the early home world scraps.
When I replace the SY it is with the Temporal type. With this, you can replace the old original CCs faster.