Random Battle Balance

[wulfir]

Originally Posted by Ravindau

Assuming that is so, I see 3 connected reasons why the defender must be at a disadvantage in Quick Battles:

The defender has less battle points in a generated battle but if the defending side is commanded by a human this outweighs any other factor.

I usually play on big size maps, the smallest size campaign I have played was a US 44-45 Airborne Long Campaign using 60x60 maps, so I'm not sure how a 30x30 game "behaves" - but I would argue that a long battle works in favour of defending human player - who will have time to defeat enemy forces and recapture lost terrain. But, then again, I'm not sure if 30x30 allows for much manouver space...

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by Ravindau

20% AI advantage.

Just a quick check: you do mean 120% and you aren't actually setting it to 20%?

[Mobhack]

30x30 is a bit small, but would do for a company or 2 if it is a "leg" battle. For a mechanised force it is a bit of a postage stamp really. It may do for a particular scenario that focusses on a small area of a city map (like the tractor factory in Stalingrad) perhaps.

You could increase battlefield depth a bit if the enemy is expected to use AFV, and also to allow for an artillery park to be deployed that's outside of HMG range of the defenders.

I use an 80x80 map size for battalion-sized core forces (generally 3 rifle coy, 1 tank coy) when I am using leg infantry supported by tanks. That gives a large enough space for manoeuvre without too long a trudge for the infantry, but if it were a snow battlefield or an impenetrable jungle I may want to reduce width to say 60 hexes or so.

I know that Don likes to play games on postage stamp maps, but that's not my particular preference. But the point of our version of the game is to provide the end user with choice. At the end of it all then it is down to personal preference, there is not really one "right way".

[DRG]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

Just a quick check: you do mean 120% and you aren't actually setting it to 20%?

Yeah there is something VERY SERIOUSLY wrong with the info given here as described

A normal P1 Assault with 2000 points vs a P2 defend set to XXX will give the dug in defender a HQ plus 666-670 points.....that's with "AI advantage" set to 100%

*IF* "AI advantage" is set to 20% as claimed the AI ANZAC defender would only get a HQ and 94 points ( which would go a long way to explain why it was easy to beat )

IF that 20% was a mistype and 120% is correct there is still a problem as 120% only gives 859-863 give or take a point or two ( 813 or so plus the HQ ) not 890 and that held true over a half dozen tests

AND..... I would like to know where in the manual it says AI advantage only interacts with campaigns

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Ravindau

Let me guess: You spend less than 50% of your points on rifles when attacking.

.

I think I see what *may* be the "problem" here but what would be most helpful for all concerned would be to see a recreation of the game that inititiated this thread.....so we need a save game after you have purchased and deployed your troops and pressed quit deploy and the next screen appears that gives the choice to either Start turn, Save game, Quit orders or Exit Game........ press SAVE GAME-- zip up the files and post them on this thread please

Don

[wulfir]

Originally Posted by Ravindau

I mean, really, would any human player want to be the delaying/defending side in a random default game? I rest my case.

I played a generated game with me defending as ANZAC vs Germany.

Aussies 870 battle points vs Germany XXX.
Visability: 20
Number of turns: 29
Location: Tobruk
Map size: 30x30
Autodeployed VHs.

I bought two rifle companies, one HMG platoon and one AT-gun platoon, a carrier section one single captured Italian mortar, one single captured Italian 20mm Breda AA gun.

The German auto-picked force included about a company of tanks and half tracks, some mortars and infantry guns and a 10,5cm battery and about two companies worth of infantry.

Positioned one company to defend and one to counterattack into the flank. Counterattack started on turn 11. Enemy on map artillery overrun by turn 20. Game ends. Aussie casualties 90 while the German losses amount to nearly the whole force.

(I did not use Z-fire).

I don't see any problem with delaying (or defending) games - the basic setup gives you a fair chance. Veteran players will probably always do well vs the AI. If you want to make it harder or easier you can...

[DRG]

Originally Posted by wulfir

I played a generated game with me defending as ANZAC vs Germany.

Aussies 870 battle points vs Germany XXX.
Visability: 20
Number of turns: 29
Location: Tobruk
Map size: 30x30
Autodeployed VHs.

I bought two rifle companies, one HMG platoon and one AT-gun platoon, a carrier section one single captured Italian mortar, one single captured Italian 20mm Breda AA gun.

The German auto-picked force included about a company of tanks and half tracks, some mortars and infantry guns and a 10,5cm battery and about two companies worth of infantry.

Positioned one company to defend and one to counterattack into the flank. Counterattack started on turn 11. Enemy on map artillery overrun by turn 20. Game ends. Aussie casualties 90 while the German losses amount to nearly the whole force.

(I did not use Z-fire).

I don't see any problem with delaying (or defending) games - the basic setup gives you a fair chance. Veteran players will probably always do well vs the AI. If you want to make it harder or easier you can...

The problems here is you bought what you ( and we.....) considered a balance combined arms force and it's looking like he overwhelmed the defenders with infantry..a reverse "AI horde" that you get when you fight a first world force in SPMBT against something like the VC or Mujahadeen. A human player would hammer something like that down with arty but on a 30x30 map there really isn't enough time for the AI to do that before they are in it's lap.

Try your test again with the same ANZAC force but with a very infantry heavy attack force.

Best defence against something like that is ample mortar support and HMG's ( and snipers ).....not trying to kill so much as disable the attack by keeping them pinned so they cannot get close and overwhelm you with their own suppressive rifle fire

But the terrain given by the map generation program is critical in a map that size and there can be more variables on a small map....postage stamps as Andy says....... I set up a map usually with a small hamlet at a crossroads then fight it out as a meeter with maybe 700 points...that gets you a couple of coys and a tank or two

Don

[Ravindau]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

Just a quick check: you do mean 120% and you aren't actually setting it to 20%?

Yes, *definitely* 120%, and the AI *got* close to 1.000 pts, but that was not nearly enough against my 2.000.

BUT my point is not that I am pretending I am such a great attack player. I would have done nearly as badly had I played Ancac against the force I bought for Germany.


In fact, defending against the AI, it depends upon what the AI buys.

Defending against tanks is easy, they die like flies. It´s defending against an infantry horde with artillery support which is near impossible. In other words, WWI generals were right, after all.

[Ravindau]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

A human player for example, might use mechanised infantry to nip out from his start line in the early turns and set up ambushes in "no man's land".

Sorry if I cut your post to this one sentence. All the rest I more or less agree with, but this sentence left me literally with my mouth open. I just don´t get it:

What good will an ambush do him against my large, slowly advancing, blobs of infantry? He has vast numerical inferiority. My blobs will eradicate the distraction and move on.

[Ravindau]

Originally Posted by wulfir

I usually play on big size maps, the smallest size campaign I have played was a US 44-45 Airborne Long Campaign using 60x60 maps, so I'm not sure how a 30x30 game "behaves" - but I would argue that a long battle works in favour of defending human player - who will have time to defeat enemy forces and recapture lost terrain. But, then again, I'm not sure if 30x30 allows for much manouver space...

Map size aside, are you sure we are talking about small pts here?

2000 vs. 740, how is the defender going to recapture anything after he has been completely wiped out?