Hebrew derived position suggestions

[DrPraetorious]

Well, I was thinking that it would be like several other civs in Dom 3 - the "Early Era" version is displaced by the Middle Era version. It works as distinct civilizations, as well.

Several early era nations have fairly powerful sacred units - Jotunheim being the most obvious example.

I'll be using the KJV names for things since I doubt most people discussing this have any Hebrew.

But, if we want two civs, we'd have -
Early Era -
Sar Elad, Age of the Judges (everybody gets Miracles so I think Judges is better.)
vs.
Nephilim

Middle Era
Sar Elad, Age of the Kings
vs.
Carthanacia, Empire of the Waves (a combination of Anakim, Phoenicia, and Carthage)

Late Era
Sar Elad, Age of the Diaspora
vs.
Carthanacia, The Salt Curse (I just made this up.) - but really you're fighting Marignon.

So, here's a draft on the specifics. I don't expect it to be game balanced, and the second era of sar-elad needs work.

Unit profiles -

Stats are 10 unless otherwise noted.

The sar-alad base profile is Mor 13, Att 11, MR 12. Giant slayers are +2 Mor, +2 Def, +4 Pre. Other elites are +1 Mor, +1 Att, +1 Str. Excellent base profiles are a selling point of this nation.

Most Carthacians have the base profile. Carthanacian elites have +2 Mor, +1 Att, +1 Str, +2 Def. Archers are -2 Mor, -1 Att, +1 Pre.

Nephilim are +2 size (and do not go up a size if mounted on a chariot, but still get other bonuses). Nephilim troops have 30 HP, a Base Protection of 5, Mor 13, MR 12 and Str 20 (this is the basic jotun profile.) Nephilim characters have 35 HP, Mor 14, MR 13 and Str 22 (elite jotun profile.) Nephilim are all immune to fire.

Anakim are +1 size. They have 20 HP, a Base Protection of 3, Mor 12, MR 11 and Str 15. As I recall, this is the basic Aesir profile from Dom 2, but I don't have units.xls handy. Anakim elites/characters have 25 HP, Mor 13, MR 12 and Str 18. Anakim are 50% fire resistant.

Salt people are -2 to all stats (additive with elite or archer profiles), but fearless. When recruited, they

Sar-alad (early era), gets -
The Torah (that's the first five books of what you rightous goy would call the Old Testament), and the early prophets (through Samuel.)
light infantry - spear, javelin, leather cuirass, shield, leather cap
medium infantry - spear, ring mail cuirass, shield, iron cap
(serpent?) chariots - elite profile. rides a chariot, has ring mail cuirass, shield, iron cap, spear and short bow.
giant slayers, who are sacred, and have magical slings (we'd need to add them as a new weapon,) leather cuirass, leather cap, dagger. Capital only.
destroyers, who are sacred, elite profile, wear ring hauberks, iron caps, carry two handed axes, and have a siege bonus.

The Maker of Offerings is FSH.
The Keeper of the Teachings is SSHH, with 100% chance of {SFAN}, and a 50% chance of {SFAN}.
The Judge is bigger than you. He's got HHHH (yes, four), SNF, with a 100% chance of {SFNx2}, a 100% chance of {SFANWH}, and a 25% chance of {SFANH}. He's a priest 4-6, with 5-7 magic levels. If you make him a prophet, he gains WW in addition to H, and gains the "sailing" ability (get it?). The Judge also has a large leadership for a spellcaster. Capital only.
You also get a Hero, who has the same sling as a giantslayer, is sacred but not a Priest, has a standard and is an elite+slinger. Capital only.
And you get a doofus commander, who is only 20 gold but oterwise identical to the ones you buy from independents.

(Nephilim)
light infantry and medium infantry armed as sar-alad.

archers with leather hauberks and shortbows (archer profile.)
Nephilim are giants. There is evidence that, folklorically speaking, the Nephilim and/or Anakim are related to norse fire giants (by way of a common Sumerian origin), so hey, they're from Muspleheim too. They are armed with Jotun Spears, Javelins, Bronze Hauberk, Bronze Helm, Shield. They're sacred.
You get commanders - elite profile, armed as nephilim but with regular spears.
You get witches, who are sacred and have a 100% chance of {NB}, a 25% chance of {B}, and a 25% chance of {WEN}.
Witch mothers are BB, with two 100% chances of {WEN} and a 10% chance of {WEN}. They're cheap for what you get, and sacred.

The royal guard are nephilim on chariots. Substitute a Jotun Bow for the Javelin. Capital only, Sacred.
Nephilim princes are HH, BBBN, with three 100% chances of {EFNB}. They have the giant hero statline, and ride chariots (armed as above). Capital only, Sacred.


(Sar-elad, middle period)

This period needs work.

This is the period from Solomon (1 Kings 3 through and on) through the Diaspora.

Retain the giant-slayers and heroes, lose the destroyers. Lose the judges, keep the lesser spellcasters.

Your infantry gets more modern equipment - Iron Caps, Ring Mail Cuirass (Light) and Chain Mail Hauberk (Medium.)

Hammers have the elite profile, carry Long Sword, Kite Shield, Full Ring Mail, Half Helmet, are mounted (presumably on giant lizards), stealthy (at +5) with wasteland and mountain survival.

The Hammer commander gets the elite bonuses twice, same equipment and special abilities. He's HH.

(Carthanacia, Middle)

The blood of the nephilim runs thin, but you claim to be the true descendents of the high culture of Arcoscephale. You are extra decadent but very learned.

Your get peltasts and cardaces just like Arcoscephale. In addition, you have crossbowmen, but they wear leather armor (archer profile.)

You lose all the nephilim, you get anakim instead.

Anakim are still sacred. Anakim wear full chain mail, half helms, carry shields and jotun swords.

Anakim princes are capital only, and also get BBHH, and two 100% chances of {FWSB}.

You retain witches, but they trade earth for astral, and the witch queen loses one of the 100% picks. Your witches now all have bonuses to research, sieges and castle defense, thanks to their acquisition of arcoscephalian learning.

(sar-elad, late age)
Rabbis, kabalists, no sacred troops except the hammers, which are now capital only. I'll edit this one in later if people want it.

(Carthanacia, late age)
Carthanacia has been cursed by Ermor, salt has been tilled into the soil and the people turned sub-human.

Their land is brackish and they are born stunted and mutated, covered with blisters with wrinkly, damp, grey skin. They are sickly and weak, and broken in the mind, making them effectiveless mindless (and fearless). On the plus side, provinces under your control are immune to the various nasty dominions (Ermor, R'lyeh).

The blood of the nephilim is washed out entirely, but your witches still remember some of the magic they were taught.

[Endoperez]

The Judge is bigger than you. He's got HHHH (yes, four), SNF, with a 100% chance of {SFNx2}, a 100% chance of {SFANWH}, and a 25% chance of {SFANH}. He's a priest 4-6, with 5-7 magic levels. If you make him a prophet, he gains WW in addition to H, and gains the "sailing" ability (get it?). The Judge also has a large leadership for a spellcaster. Capital only.

This should be hero, or be toned down.

Holy 4 is equivalent to old Holy 5. The only instances of Holy 5 in DomII were Bartholomeus the Patriarch and maybe few other heroes. Access to holy 5, and perhaps something like 10% chance of Holy 6 or more, is just absurd. No one would make them a prophet, since the scaling priest spells are few in numbers.



If it is towned town, I might be able to pull of the Propheted -> Water bonus thing. I'd have to #copystats something that has a different form as a prophet. One would become the Sar-Alad Judge. The copied unit would be cleared and remade. The second form it would turn into would be cleared and remade as another form, and would get sailing. I think I can also add Water, but I'd have to test it.

If the Nephilim are basically Fire-based Jotun, I think we already have few fitting graphics. Jotun Jarls and Herses get gilded equipment when propheted, so there we have "bronze armor". Both wield Jotun Sword, no less. Asmegs, the descendants of Aesir, could also be used. They are ugly, but I quess they would work.

Currently, there is no Jotun Bow. If we're going to have to make another ranged weapon, would it be a bow or a sling? I like slings. I've wanted to make a Jotun Sling for a long time.


I might be able to pull off a sling that deals more damage to giants. Shortsword, the one the special Hoburg Overfuhrer wields, deals double or triple damage to giants. If I change it to a ranged weapon, the ability should stay unchanged. I don't think big O himself would mind if he had a sling instead of a sword.


EDIT: Damn, almost forgot. You are giving them WAY too easy access to magic. EA is often limited in the types of magic they can get. EA Atlatis has Fire, Earth and Water, and not much else. Niefelheim can get up to Water 4, Death 3, Blood 3, Air 1 with normal randoms, and Astral 2, Nature 3 if both of Gygjas 100% randoms happen to raise the same path. No access to Earth or Fire at all, only one in three Niefel Jarls can get Air 1, and Astral 2 and Nature 3 are uncommon, and the mages cost 250 gp a pop, or 500 for a Niefel Jarl. They can't just recruit them until they get lucky.

Tien Chi can get any element, Nature and Astral up to 2 with 100% randoms of capital-only units. They can also get Water 3 and Death 1 on a Celestial Master.

You want to give these guys access to S3, F3, N3 with a two additional chances of raising one of these or one of the other paths (including Water and Air, so at least 1 in either is common).
BBBN with 3x100%FEBN would give them access to at least E2 and B5 pretty often. F2 and N3 aren't a big deal because Judges are so overpowered.
Witch Mothers are very good too, and often get E2 or W2.


They'd have very powerful mages of Blood, Fire, Astral and Nature; good mages of Earth and Water, easy access to Air 1 and would occassionally get Air 2. They could also recruit Holy 5 priests who might get randoms up to Holy 7. They lack only Death. They are too good.

[Endoperez]

Gilded Jarl: 375
BTW, he wields a Great sword (1 more att and def). That's probably a bug.

Another gilded Jarl: 436


Dwarven smith (323) becomes different when propheted (324). Darkvision 50 and Mountain Survival, but I think I can remove the Darkvision. Mountain Survival could fit the nation. I think that'll do. The gilded jarls aren't needed as porphets then, and can be used for graphics.

The male Spentas:
1375, 1376, 1377 have robes, wings and shepherds' staves. If the wings are taken out, they should fit. as Judges or something.

[Endoperez]

Here are the first two pictures. A Jarl with gilded equipment and a Lizard Chariot without the C'tissian rider. Using a black map, taking screenshots of Dom3 graphics is much easier than from Dom2.

However, the lizard chariot is too small for a Nephilim.

EDIT: forgot attachment.

[Agrajag]

I don't want to be a jerk, but DrPraetorious, your vision for Sar Elad kind of seems to clash with the concept of Sar Elad as was formed in the earlier thread "Byblical Mod Discussion".
You are suggesting that even EA Sar Elad will be very powerful in unit power, and use different and better weapons (even Iron weapons!), then what we originally came up with.
I just don't think both concepts can merge well into one mod, and would personally rather see the mods split.


Then again, most of the work required for the mod is drawing new graphics, which is not something I am capable of*, so as far as actually making the mod, I have no control on it, so the decision isn't mine to make.

*-Well, I could probably photoshop some new units from existing units**, if I had access to some sprites to edit.
Though that still wouldn't be as good as brand new units.

**-You know what I mean, change the color on that shield, give that unit this spear instead of a sword and leather armor instead of the platemail, etc.

[Nerfix]

Well, DrPraetories can make his own mod and we can make our own. =) I am sure that a man and a Hybrid can coexist peacefuly and make their own biblical mods.

[DrPraetorious]

For some reason I was unable to find the earlier thread, even though I saw mention of it in another discussion.

You are correct that the early period (whatever) should probably have bronze instead of iron - I was giving them the equipment off of independents rather than other nationals, which was a mistake.

[Agrajag]

DrPraetorious said:
For some reason I was unable to find the earlier thread, even though I saw mention of it in another discussion.

Nerfix linked to it in the second post in this thread: http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...b=5&o=&fpart=1
Unless you mean that you failed to find the thread that spawned that thread...
Either way, Nerfix is right (especially since he says what I said )

[DrPraetorious]

Anyway, let us indeed fork. Endoperez is 100% correct about those units being too big.

So, I'm thinking there aren't really enough Hebrews for three eras, so lets try this. Hykosia comes from "Hyksos", who are not Hebrews but some people seem to think they are. These are revised magic picks, I'll try revising and expanding the unit profiles as soon as I get excel reinstalled.
* -> Capital Only

(early)
Hykosia, Reign of the Nephilim (compare to - Niefelheim)
*Nephilim Prince: HHBB, 100% {FANx2}, 50% {FABN}
Witch: 100% {BN}, 10% {FABN}, sacred
*Witch Mother: HBN, 100% {FABN}, 10% {FABN}

(mid)
Carthacia, ??? (compare to - Abyssia)
*Anakim Prince: HHBB, 100% {ASx2}, 100% {FASB}
Witch: 50% {B}, 50% {FAS}, research bonus, sacred
*Witch Mother: HBS, 50% {FASB}, research bonus, siege/castle
Hykosia, Reign of the Judges (compare to - Shinuyama)
*Judge: HHHFA, 100%{NFAx2}, 100% {NSW}, 10% {NFASW}
Keeper of the Scrolls: HHFA, 50% {NF}, 50% {NA}, 25%{SW}, 10% {NFASW}
Cohen: HA, 10%{NFS}

(late)
Carthacia, Fields of Salt
Witch: 50% {B}, 50% {DAN}
*Witch Mother: HHBN, 100% {DANB}
Hykosia, Reign of the Kings
*Gaon: HHS, 100%{SFAWENx2}
Kabalist: S, 100%{FAWEN}, Sacred
Posek: HH, 10%{FAWEN}
Canter: H, Communion Slave

How about these for magic picks:

[FrankTrollman]

It is much easier to rip picts from other sources and then photoshop them into the appropriate sizes/formats than it is to draw your own in tiny pixel-art format.

For example, I've attached a pic of a philistine spearman that was public domain off some bible study site. A few minutes to resize him to 64x64 pixels and black out all the adjoining background and you've got something that looks way better than a lego-mage-knight. Might be too tall, I haven't gotten my copy yet. But if so, it's just a matter of giving it some more vertical clearance when you crop it and then resize with some more blank space above.

---

Anyway, the Canaanites kicked Hebrew *** for generations, so the early era should be mostly focused on the dominant military force of the region: Philistines. The human troops should have Aurochs, Slingers, Chariots, and Spearmen to go with their giants.

Available pretenders should be:

Monolith
Oracle
Fountain of Blood
Wyrm
Virtue
Titan
Moloch
Living Fetish
Dagon
Mother of Serpents
Prince of Death
Lich
Ghost King
Blue Dragon
Red Dragon
Green Dragon
Frost Father
Master Druid
Great Enchantress
Great Sage
Archmage
Crone

I'm probably missing some of the new ones of course.

-Frank