How is cheating possible?

[Zapmeister]

While I'm not a cryptanalyst, I suggest you search the net for "chosen plaintext attack".

I won't do this, but I will take your word for it that the encryption can be defeated with an appropriate tool.

That being the case, there's no defense short of server checking, and there's a lot of checking to do. The type and quantity of every asset a player apparently holds (gems, items, units etc) in the incoming 2h file has to be reconciled against the ftherlnd file, and that's not easy.

[Evil Dave]

That being the case, there's no defense short of server checking, and there's a lot of checking to do. The type and quantity of every asset a player apparently holds (gems, items, units etc) in the incoming 2h file has to be reconciled against the ftherlnd file, and that's not easy.

I'm not sure it's so bad. I think all the server needs to remember is how much stuff each player started with at the beginning of a turn, and then get a list of new stuff each player's moves created. If a list cost more than that player had, something's gone wrong. Alchemy makes the problem a bit harder, but I don't think dramatically so.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well the developers have a way to dismantle a players file and do the comparison. So that information should make us all feel more relaxed. Deep discussion on how the cheating can be accomplished would serve questionable purposes.

[Huzurdaddi]

While I'm not a cryptanalyst, I suggest you search the net for "chosen plaintext attack".

You do not attack the cryptography in a suitaion like this. The client has to be able to read the .2h files it has to be able to checksum ( hash ) them. Thus the key and the salt for the checksum ( hash ) are in the executable this is where you look.

The developers can do a little to make it hard to find the keys, but in the end a determined attacker will find them.

That being the case, there's no defense short of server checking, and there's a lot of checking to do. The type and quantity of every asset a player apparently holds (gems, items, units etc) in the incoming 2h file has to be reconciled against the ftherlnd file, and that's not easy.

Not really. The server should do all of the checking that the UI does. And this more than likely is the problem. IW has code which does validation in the UI for some operations ( let's say alchemy ) and they do not validate on the server.

[Huzurdaddi]

Deep discussion on how the cheating can be accomplished would serve questionable purposes.

I have to say that I disagree with this. *if* there is cheating going on then it is best to have the methods in the open thus everyone knows what can happen and they look for evidence. Further it stimulates patches.

Although *if* there is cheating *and* it is caused by most of the checking being done by the UI and not by the server then that could mean a lot of work for IW.

[The Panther]

*if* there is cheating going on then it is best to have the methods in the open thus everyone knows what can happen and they look for evidence. Further it stimulates patches.

Although *if* there is cheating *and* it is caused by most of the checking being done by the UI and not by the server then that could mean a lot of work for IW.

I must wonder, are you Norfleet under an alias? I mean, *if* there is cheating? I know you read the other post about cheating because you replied in there. I am sure that you therfore must have read the post from Kris about all the stuff Norfleet had in that game by turn 23. Even if you totally ignore Storm because of supposed sour grapes, you still cannot discount Kris. 18 hammers? 46 dusk elders in addition to many more summoned commanders? Two queen of airs? 35 clams? Wow, even. That is not even remotely feasible.

Come on, Huzurdaddi, *if* he was cheating? Of course he was! It looks to me like, on average per turn, he *gave* himself some 200 gems of mixed types and at least 500 gold above what he leagally earned.

That is cheating in my book, no matter how he acomplished it. He even mostly admitted to it in those Last two puzzling Posts before he claimed he was gone forever.

[Zapmeister]

I must wonder, are you Norfleet under an alias?

Coincidentally, this was the exact question I asked myself (fruitlessly trying to get more information by looking at their profiles) when Huzurdaddi defended Norfleet, rather lamely I thought, in Stormbinder's original thread.

But as has been discussed before, it's not something that can ever be proved either way, so speculation will always be unproductive and frustrating.

[Stormbinder]

Greetings.

I am not sure how the actual cheating was accomplished. As for game-engine effects, from spending a lot of time analyzing Norfeet's file, it seems to me that the main focus of his cheating was to keep adding about 200 gems to any magic schools when he needed it. Or maybe reseting all magic schools gems to 200. Than he could just used and convert these gems in whatever he wanted to. He must have did it many times thoughout the game, based upon final gem count. Most of his magic gems in the treasury very quite close to 200, except those that he had been using heavely (like fire and death gems). He even had 200 bloodslaves (for whom he had no use though and of course being Ermor he didn't really hunt these slave)

Other game mechanisms appeared to be intact, meaning spells were working the way they supposed to work, items were forged according to the specifications, etc. Whenever Norfleet needed something specific he just used his unlimited amount of gems to empower some of his Elders to do the job, like empowering and boosting 1 elder to Air 5 from air 1, to geting him one of 2 AQ that he summoned during the current turn. Or empowering Elders in Earth to forge him his 19 Dwarven Hammers, etc.

Basicly it seems that it all comes to being able to modify ammount of gems in the treasury on whimp. Or at least this is the feeling feeling I got from studing his file.


As for actual technical details of how the hack was accomplished - I simply don't know. I can make several guesses, but they would be just that - guesses.

I have some slight suspicions, however. You see, I remember hearing some time ago (from Norfleet himself) that he got access to scripts writen and used by Mose to run his server. If I remember correctly, he said that Mose gave them himself to Norfleet after Norf asked him to, claiming he, Norfleet, is going to create another public server similar to Mose's for Dom2 players, and run it together with his "clan" (most likely he was reffering to his other alter-egos ).

Norfleet also said he and his clan was going to modify these scripts to make them "better". He didn't give anymore details, at least I don't remeber it. It all was pretty long time ago, about 4 monthes ago I think.

If Norfleet was telling the truth, that he got access to these scripts that Mose wrote for his server, than maybe it is possible that Norfleet was able to use Moses' scripts, directly or indirectly, against Mose's server itself to compromise its security.

He would still need to be able to do certain things with Illwinter files as well, that you can not normally do, but the above process could be part of the global picture, assuming Norf was telling the truth about having accsess to these files. He (or somebody else who was doing the actula hacking for him) was likely to be messing with their files encription, because, according to Sheap, he set off cheat alarm in some other game of his, from which he immideatly withdrew.


As I said, it is just a suspicios however, I don't have any prood on this matter. I've writen this all to KristofferO, in case if there is a chance that it may be able to help them to track and close whatever loophole Norf was using.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Huzurdaddi]

Coincidentally, this was the exact question I asked myself (fruitlessly trying to get more information by looking at their profiles) when Huzurdaddi defended Norfleet, rather lamely I thought, in Stormbinder's original thread.

Wow. Well mark me up as always on the side counter to you from now on that's for sure. You could have cleared it up by looking at posting history, but I *really* doubt that you are at all concerned with the truth.

The truth is that Norfleet consistantly kicked your *** and you whined and whined about it and now that you *think* that you know something you scream it at the top of your lungs.

Quite pathetic, honestly.

All I know for 100% certian from the Posts is that:

1) stormwhiner attempted to setup Norfleet in a game where he had allied before the game started with all of the other players. A clear indiction of a pathetic coward.

2) Norfleet had an insane number of gems in the game in question. I have no idea how he got them.

3) you are someone who has gotten beaten consistently by Norfleet as evideniced by your "no norfleet" games and have a vendeta again him.

4) someone who made entertaining Posts, who was insightful about the game, and who shared *some* of his knowledge about the game is probably gone from the community due to a vendeta.

The programming facts are that assuming that IW did their job correctly then the only real way to hack the game ( which is supposed to be the topic you started ) is through access to the files on the server. However it is possible that they made some mistakes as I covered above.

[Zapmeister]

you are someone who has gotten beaten consistently by Norfleet as evideniced by your "no norfleet" games and have a vendeta again him.

I think the only useful response I can make to this rant is that I have, in fact, never played Norfleet. I Banned him from my games because of his earlier unethical behaviour, and only recently lifted that ban.