why buy armor?

[bhutnath]

rremoving the v-hexes or setting their value to 1 souhnds like an excellent idea!


thanks for the links. The 'rules' look intersting. I am also looking forward to the new patch and see how that might work out. I am not familiar with the logic of 'valuing' pieces in MBT. Surely it must have gone through a lot scrutiny from the community at large? After all its at the heart of SP as a game.

I suspect it based on the capabilities of each units in terms of thermals armor number of ammunitions etc. However, it might be very difficult to value these pieces based on their actual use in battle.

I do find arty dirt cheap specialy if you allow the logistical support of ammo dump you can drop cluster munitions all day long. prob a bit gamey as the above links suggest. But then I have never even fired a rifle (well I have fired a few rounds from 22mm rifle in colledge!) and dont know a think about military except they get a very large share of the taxes I pay. I do understand the rules of the game and can only plan to play according to the rules. What I am saying is that I have no choice but to rely on other experts to develop a set of rules that works as a best compromise between reality and gameplay. But given the current set of rules, I am still not convinced that armor is a worthwhile purchase.


Just the other day I was thinking of using the m190a2 (not sure of the name, the 203mm sp arty US) as a close support unit for it costs barely 30-35 points!! Even the cheapest tank in the pakistan armed forces - m4 patton of the 1950-60 era come for 150+ points. Sure it can tanks, but in 2010 I just want it for it close support.

Been thinking of using howitze with apc as a mobile fire support team right up in the front. For no other reason but they are so damn cheap.

I dont know about advanced nations, but surely most countries cannot afford to use their best 155mm arty is such fashion!

One of the points in suggested rules was no ammo reloads for helos in ME. I think that would make helos rather expensive for their limited atgm capacity! specialy if facing active defence equiped armor! I never buy fighters for just this reason, too damn expensive and too easily shot down.

[Artur]

bhutnath said:
I recognize the advantage armor and IFV can bring. However, I wonder if in game point terms if they are worth it? In games with large number of points the vicotry hex points comprise of only a fraction of total points. Loss of a single tank can cost one any where from 300-600 points. So loss of say 5 t90 tanks would cost about 2500-3000 points! very diffult to accumulate this kind of points against an opponent with just infantry tucks and arty units.

Try your theory in practice (PBEM). There are some seasoned players at the Blitzkrieg club.

I also think the victory hexes should be at least one magnitude higher than tzhey are now. However you still can have good battles by eliminating the opposing force .

IMHO a unit is worth as much as it helps you in realizing your battle plan.I think buying only expensive top gear will lead to defeat most of the time, but mixing it with cheaper units some expensive units have their place in a winning team.

Artur.

[bhutnath]

it just strck me, that part of the reason why I find armored units so expensive is that one can keep atgm troops supplied through ammo dumps/trucks etc. But is that realistic? Can and do atgm troops recieve replenishment in battles (within matter of minutes?) I would hazaard guess, no! I suspect it same for artillery. Surely they dont get replenished so quickly as in game. I suspect ammo dumps may not be as near as 3-4 km from the front in real battles?

So do the ammo dump/trucks etc make the game unrealistic? Withought them, the value of armored units would go up dramaticaly in my eyes
But then the sams deplete their ammo very fast, surely most SAM batteries have more than 3 shots per launcher at hand. THey must not have to waite like half to full day for more replenishments to arrive from rear. So select units be allowed ammo dump? but the ammo dumps themsleves have unlimited ammo of all kinds so this could allow one launcher to launch 20-30 missileso in a 40 turn game (4 hours of fighting), this sound like an unrealistic number.

I suspect the key to improvement may lie with developing a better logistic system?
-Ak

[Weasel]

bhutnath said:
rremoving the v-hexes or setting their value to 1 souhnds like an excellent idea!

I just finished a game where we reduced the battle points from 2:1 (assault) to 1.5:1 and the flags to 1 point each. It is the first assault I have played where they assaulting player actually lost by a minor. Normally all others have been medium wins.

So I think the flag reduction and point reduction made a big difference.

[Listy]

A note on ammo trucks:

A switched on opponent will put you in a world of hurt if you clump your blokes around ammo supplies.

You mentioned arty with ammo dumps. Arty will give away its position by smoke. A lot of players I know keep an eye on the back field for just such a target. So does the AI I believe.

When an ammo dump goes bang its very enthusiastic about it.

[bhutnath]

Listy said:
A note on ammo trucks:

A switched on opponent will put you in a world of hurt if you clump your blokes around ammo supplies.

You mentioned arty with ammo dumps. Arty will give away its position by smoke. A lot of players I know keep an eye on the back field for just such a target. So does the AI I believe.

When an ammo dump goes bang its very enthusiastic about it.

I would like to know if the arty becomes visible (not just smoke) after a few rounds of firing. Here is what I have been doing, if I get a SP arty system or multiple barrel rocket laucnh system like the b-21, I buy a dump per vehicle . Shoot and run to dump, reposition, shoot run to dump. Most of the time the opponent's counter battery fire drops on nothing.

Recently I have been wondering if I cant get cheaper but towed arty system which not only are equaly effective but offer me a continous barrage capability which i loose with scoot and shoot.

So I buy myself a arty brigade (3-4 regiment) with one regiment of same callibre guns with cluster munitions. I buy one dump per cluster mun equiped tube and 1 dump per platoon of regular arty.

Then I scatter them around all over the map. Since a dump can supply over 2 hex the regular arty platoon is arange in a 'traible' where each arty is 2 hexes away from the a dump. The expensive cluster mun equipped guns are all alone by themselves with their own private dumps! (but 2 hex away to escape blast if dump is destroyed)

Each time I fire I use some guns to add more smoke on the map. Now, here is where I dont know if the guns become visible with few rounds, for otherwise there would be about 60-90 odd, smoked hex on the back part of the map within 2 turns of firing with only 48 or so of them containing an arty piece. I do loose some arty in the course of the game, but so far my opponents have given up on taking them out. One advantage of keeping all guns of the same callibre is the opponent has to guess which are the cheap non cluster and which are the expensive ones!

I havent played too many games yet, so i suspect there may be a lot of learning to come by the way of a game with seasoned opponent.
-Ak

[bhutnath]

I would like to know if the arty becomes visible (not just smoke) after a few rounds of firing. Here is what I have been doing, if I get a SP arty system or multiple barrel rocket laucnh system like the b-21, I buy a dump per vehicle . Shoot and run to dump, reposition, shoot run to dump. Most of the time the opponent's counter battery fire drops on nothing.

Recently I have been wondering if I cant get cheaper but towed arty system which not only are equaly effective but offer me a continous barrage capability which i loose with scoot and shoot.

So I buy myself a arty brigade (3-4 regiment) with one regiment of same callibre guns with cluster munitions. I buy one dump per cluster mun equiped tube and 1 dump per platoon of regular arty.

Then I scatter them around all over the map. Since a dump can supply over 2 hex the regular arty platoon is arange in a 'traible' where each arty is 2 hexes away from the a dump. The expensive cluster mun equipped guns are all alone by themselves with their own private dumps! (but 2 hex away to escape blast if dump is destroyed)

Each time I fire I use some guns to add more smoke on the map. Now, here is where I dont know if the guns become visible with few rounds, for otherwise there would be about 60-90 odd, smoked hex on the back part of the map within 2 turns of firing with only 48 or so of them containing an arty piece. I do loose some arty in the course of the game, but so far my opponents have given up on taking them out. One advantage of keeping all guns of the same callibre is the opponent has to guess which are the cheap non cluster and which are the expensive ones!

I havent played too many games yet, so i suspect there may be a lot of learning to come by the way of a game with seasoned opponent.
-Ak

[RVPERTVS]

bhutnath said:
I just cant seem to see any sense in buying armor. So folks help me out here, what is it about armored units that I am overlooking?

The main ability of tanks is the move/attack factor IMHO; I mean, unlike any other non-inf unit in the game, MBTs are tank killing equipment that are able to move and fire several shots in the same turn that´s a hell of a capability, I can´t remember all the situations where a couple of tanks and some lucky shots saved my flanked *** thanks to that move and fire ability

Their main weakness, however, is their poor LOS range against infantry ambushes and atgms, that´s why you want to keep them escorted (and thier paths scouted) by inf. all the time unless you want to see them toasted; cheap mounted infantry does fine.

From my personal experience, tanks in winspmbt are modeled and intended to provide close support to infantry (either advancing or defending)and as main tank killers. When your infantry and artillery are compromised your tanks are a very versatile platform you can rely on for last minute/suprise and /or exploit maneuvers, something you can´t do that easily with your infantry or mobile atgms alone.

One classic example: tanks can remain hidden behind a slope, wait for the target to be supressed by other means, aproach, fire, and get back to the slope again.

Tanks are also very good for sneak/flank/destroy soft echleon targets operations, again, something you can´t do at the same tempo with infantry. Without tanks your tactics tend to be more static, adding tanks to the ecuation provides endless possibilities (Yeaph..I´m a "tankie" )

Just my two cents

Regards
Robert

[Smersh]

yeah, even when ATGMs arrive, tanks still remain one of the best anti-tank platforms.

[PlasmaKrab]

Well, as Robert says, tanks have over ATGM units the advantage of mobility, armor and more fire opportunities. SPMBT is very unforgiving with the firing rate of ATGM units, so they can be used nearly only in defense.
One other advantage of tanks over missile tank hunters: larger ammo allowance!
10-15 ATGMs are disposed of really quickly, particularly against mobile targets (not mentioning the 4 rounds of foot ATGM teams), while a tank can pack 30-40 AT rounds or more and make good use of them from a decent position.
So I tend to use tanks as the most versatile and resilient mobile platform around. Makes good use as long as you keep them in a balanced force mix and don't push your luck. Oh, and some kind of technological edge over the enemy's best (at least being able to punch through his best armor) can also help...