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August 16th, 2021, 02:29 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cracow, Poland
Posts: 415
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
20 years of actual military supplementation and advanced training.
Nearly the entire Marshall's Plan worth of aid to Afghanistan.
More than 2 trillions of military intervention cost.
Aaaaaand there is Afghan government falling like a cripple from a wheelchair the second the nurse turned the head for a second.
Oh, come on woman. If in 20 years Afghans cannot be convinced to broadly understood West, nothing will convince them. Taliban won because they generally do and say what majority of Afghans really believe and want, regardless what bull**** were they previously telling to the ISAF troops shaking their hands.
Afghanistan is for Afghans, if they want it Taliban style, so be it :P
Or they had all the means to fight for it. |
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August 16th, 2021, 03:01 PM
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Shrapnel Fanatic
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
It would be interesting to know it was fighters from ISIL/ISIS who made their way to Afganistan to bolster the Taliban that tipped the balance.
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August 17th, 2021, 06:47 PM
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Second Lieutenant
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cracow, Poland
Posts: 415
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG
It would be interesting to know it was fighters from ISIL/ISIS who made their way to Afganistan to bolster the Taliban that tipped the balance.
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Taliban was ferociously fighting off any ISIS influence, particularly in Herat area, so I would be surprised if they now acted as allies. They have waaaaaay different agenda, both social and religious. |
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August 18th, 2021, 03:49 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
To " quantify" the following, 1 is too many, but, war is war. As the release of classified documents released in about the last 15 years or so showed, we were some place else a lot longer then was " advertised" my Dad did an advisor tour while in the USA in either 1957/58 or 1958/59 (1959 is when the war started between North and South Vietnam.)
Both Afghanistan and S. Vietnam with our involvement share similar issues both politically and militarily. Which tried to change their governments but due to incompetency and corruption, they both failed. We spent decades training both so that could fight on their own, the final result? The countries capitals of Kabul fell this past weekend and Saigon fell in 1 day as most historians agree on now- mostly-2 days by some.
Unlike the Ukrainians presently that are fighting to preserve their country ( Maybe it's time we bumped up their morale also. At least they're "holding the line".), the other two, besides the above were/are " tribal" in nature regionally in S. Vietnam and more locally in Afghanistan.
The evacuations, no difference. I watched it live on TV then as now and it's the same " F U Soup Sandwich".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA3uV_YXZAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lLBbhnkZU
https://www.forces.net/heritage/hist...as-fall-saigon
https://thevietnamwar.info/how-long-...20be%20precise.
To the other...
https://www.forces.net/evergreen/isl...they-different
There was guy named George Santayana who said “ Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
Sounds about right to me.
Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton
"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - My career long mentor and current friend -QMCM/SS M. Moher USN Ret..
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; August 18th, 2021 at 12:38 PM..
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August 18th, 2021, 09:32 AM
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Second Lieutenant
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 594
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
The article is mostly political, so I'll just leave the link and the warning: politics. However, there are some interesting parts that I'll quote here:
Quote:
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Gen. Petraeus swore he would have the Taliban bleeding from the nose and ready to sign whatever he demanded of them by July 2011. That never happened. McChrystal abandoned COIN after its very first test case in the town of Marjah in the Helmand Province.
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Quote:
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By the time Petraeus got there, he’d forgotten all about his own counterinsurgency doctrine and simply escalated special operations night raids and air strikes instead. As the great Gareth Porter proved, they were mostly killing and imprisoning innocent people. The Drone Papers leaked by Daniel Hale further confirmed Porter’s reporting.
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Quote:
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The Taliban figured out very quickly that if the U.S. strategy was centered on training up the Afghan National Army, they could thwart that by sending in sleeper agents to commit “insider” or “green on blue” attacks against their American trainers. That was it. The game was over. The distance created between the U.S. soldiers and the local charges by these attacks amounted to the ultimate sabotage of their plans to create an effective force—if that were ever possible.
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Quote:
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The ANA was mostly a bunch of “ghost soldiers,” who existed only on paper for the financial gain of the officers in charge. The actual men who showed up were mostly looking for a pair of boots, a rifle and a decent meal. At no time did the largely Tajik and Uzbek army have the Taliban’s sense of morale in fighting for their country. They were fighting at the behest of a foreign power to try to subjugate the population of part of their country, not really in self-defense at all.
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https://original.antiwar.com/scott/2...ghan-disaster/
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August 19th, 2021, 09:52 AM
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First Lieutenant
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pila, North west Poland
Posts: 636
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
Just d'like to add propostion to Afgan OOB expansion based on data from previous post about equipment of Afgan Army pre 1970.
Next I d'like to propose addition of Afgan ANA commandos units which according to wikipedia were tasked with 80% of all fights with Taliban until recently Kabul fall and desintegration of goverment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan...Commando_Corps
This movie from July is proof that they were no mercy for them even when they surrender
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/a...hnk/index.html
Not supraised that Commandos were among the first of this who start resistance under Northern aliance banner recently in Panjshir Valley were heading last troops since 17th August
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjshir_resistance
This propostion is based on Afgan OOB OOB26 where nothing is changed except units after unit662 where this new units are placed
I also add a couple of lbm's which represents
Pm29900.lbm until Pm29915.lbm tanks and equipment from article
Pm29916.lbm until Pm29924.lbm ANA commandos
Pm29925.lbm to Pm299929.lbm former ANA airforce aircrafts look on PM29928.lbm was described as SU-17 recently captured by Taliban
BTW.
Detailed raport of ANA losses
Equipment losses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Taliban_offensive
Quote:
According to an open-source investigative report, published at the Oryx blog by Stijn Mitzer and Joost Oliemans,[68] since June, the Taliban captured twelve tanks (seven T-54s and five T-62s), fifty-one armoured fighting vehicles (forty-six M1117 ASVs, two M1117 Command & Controls and three M113 APCs), sixty-one mortars and pieces of artillery (thirty-five 122mm D-30 howitzers, three 76 mm divisional gun M1942 (ZiS-3)s, one 120mm mortar, two 82mm M69 mortars, one 60mm mortar and nineteen mortars of unknown origin), eight anti-aircraft guns (two 14.5mm KPV-1s and six 23mm ZU-23s), sixteen helicopters (nine Mil Mi-17s, one Mil Mi-24V, four UH-60A BlackHawks and two MD 530Fs), six unmanned aerial vehicles (six Boeing Insitu ScanEagles), and 1,973 trucks, vehicles and jeeps from the Afghan armed forces.[66][250] The Taliban also destroyed nine M1117 ASVs, four Mi-17s and three UH-60A BlackHawks, one DJI Mavic and 104 trucks, vehicles and jeeps. Oryx only counts destroyed vehicles and equipment of which photo or videographic evidence is available.[66]
Since 2 July, US forces conducted multiple airstrikes targeting military equipment captured by the insurgents. US airstrikes destroyed multiple D30 artillery pieces, multiple tanks, MRAPs and Humvees that the Taliban had captured from Afghan security forces.
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Last edited by blazejos; August 19th, 2021 at 10:22 AM..
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August 20th, 2021, 05:39 AM
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First Lieutenant
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pila, North west Poland
Posts: 636
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
If you look again on the movie of execution of Commandos from CNN from July further in the middle of the movie there is an evidence from local peoples that Taliban fighters talk in foreign language that may be an answer for question raised earlier that in this last stand of ANA army face also foreign fighters from outside Afghanistan.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/a...hnk/index.html
And that is something disturbing that during this last month most capable and trustworthy soldiers of Afghan government were lured inside traps and killed without mercy probably thanks to penetration of ANA by traitors. Even Sun-Tzu mentioned that dagger stab in back or poison is more capable in war than open fight. So when Commandos units who fight moust battles in June-July were lost that is not suprise that regular army units and police simple disintegrate. They waren't fighting this war with so high morale either wasn't so well trained they have only equipment which they left and flee.
If you look on this article about Salima Mazari governor of Chahar Kint
https://twitter.com/hashtag/SalimaMa...=hashtag_click
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-hostage.html
organised a peoples militia to support ANA units and I have feeling that this wasn't an exception but happens in many parts of Afghanistan. So Afghanistan government fall but many peoples fights and now they face consequence of this I have feeling that they don't believe in promises of pace and personal security that is game now between Taliban and west who need airport secured and not attacked by Taliban.
That people resistance against Taliban from side of society is now weak but already started because broken promises of Taliban government about peace, personal security, and issue of girls taken by fighters. That may also explain now bloody riots against Taliban in Jalalabad Khost and Asadaba,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Afghan_protests
Simple Taliban top official government need international recognition and may promise many things even enforce them in Kabul but smaller warlords in provinces don't care they are interested in rape and pillage + killing of their enemies even if that is discouraged by new Taliban government in Kabul.
That is why peoples who are on proscription lists, soldiers from broken units try to starts resistance. They have no other option Taliban want them dead west selfish caring only about safety of their evacuation and airport so probably now they can't even have any help from anywhere.
Here is article about one of this last stand place PANJSHIR VALLEY
in 16 of august they start to collect vehicles and helicopters from broken units and prepare https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/inside...liban-control/ they even have their flag which is decadent from Northern alliance from 2001 https://www.republicworld.com/world-...-its-flag.html
Here is more about rescued vehicles and equipment
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssia-says.html
https://www.trtworld.com/asia/anti-t...s-russia-49308
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3499828...tance-taliban/
And here about arms and gear of ANA commandos in hands of Taliban
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3506397...military-gear/
Last edited by blazejos; August 20th, 2021 at 05:56 AM..
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August 22nd, 2021, 07:03 PM
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Lieutenant Colonel
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,376
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Re: obat26 Afghanistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack
The morale and rally may need a check for the taliban formations.
The "government" (ANA and etc) is likely set low enough, any "central government" of Afghanistan never seems to be worth much militarily - see how they folded recently after 20 odd years of training and suppply from the Western foeces.
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Apparently supply/organization in the ANA and Police forces were nonexistent:
1.) Many ANA people hadn't been paid since...around May of this year. If you're not getting paid for the last 4 months, why stay?
2.) Many people were "ghost" soldiers, existing on paper to supply graft and corruption -- this was also AFAIK an issue with the Soviets in Afghanistan and/or Chechnya, but because Soviet organization was set up around WWII style supply distribution -- if you reported headcount accurately, you got less food/ammo, so there was an incentive to report dead people as alive to get their supplies.
In the Afghan case, it was pure corruption, pocketing the "ghost soldiers'" salaries.
3.) Afghans couldn't even get "into" logistics -- many US units started carrying extra ammo and mags to resupply their assigned police; because the Afghan Police refused to issue out ammo -- you were given 2 magazines for your pistol, and you couldn't get any more until you came back with no ammo.
The Afghans didn't get the concept that waiting until a unit was "black" in regards to supply was really bad.
4.) And this next issue is endemic to tribal culture -- this was also encountered in Mali (Africa) by the French who were attempting to train anti Shahib militas.
Basically, local tribal councils keep the best quality manpower for their local militas and tribal police -- as a consequence, only the total fookin' idiots of that area get given up whenever the central government/police come around asking for manpower.
This has a lot of knock on effects for trying to run a national army in areas of intense tribalism -- you're having to explain to the poorest possible quality of personnel why preventive maintenance is good for firearms and vehicles, and why you shouldn't be smoking hash while on guard duty (!!!)
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(drastic scenes)
(read men are shots immediately women raped and probably then killed or not)
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