MA: Jomon: The Courts of the Ryu - Looking for insight

[legowarrior]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Modding that requires repurposing an existing similar spell. There's no way to create a new 'summons one of several unique creatures' spell from scratch.

Hadn't even thought that far down the line yet.

[legowarrior]

Some great ideas so far. The bushido thing... I hadn't even thought of that yet. What I need is mages for the this era, weak recruit every ones.

I want to keep the Monks of the Five Fold and there spells, and I think the Omnyo-ji should stick around. I'm tempted to keep the Shugenja in, but take out the Master Shujenja.

The idea of having the priest take units with it sounds good, but only 10 at a time.

As to sailing... There are the Wokou, but that is of a later era.

If the Wokou were in the game, I would make Wokou Captain and Wokou Raider
The Captain would have sailing and 25% of Air, 25% of Water Magic. 1 in 8 would have water and air. No lab needed.
Weapons and Armor - Ashigaru Armor, and 2 Wakizashi each. No Helmets.
What do you think. I could make the capital only.

And yes, the Jomon would 100% always start coastal.

Keep the ideas coming. I'll add some information to the first thread about my goal. Keep up the great work.

[shatner]

One of the defining characteristics of Shinuyama and Jomon is how their recruit-anywhere troops and commanders are excellent and they have little-to-nothing they care about that is capital-only. Whether you want to continue that focus will impact what the design for their mages is like.

Here's my take on what a typical nation has
cheap h1 priest
better h2 priest
weak mage-priest (H1 + 1-2 paths)
cheap mage (2 paths max)
diversity mage (heavy randoms or lots of low paths)
ritualist mage (2-3 in 2 paths)
Capstone mage or priest (something awesome that defines the nation)

Now, not all of these slots are filled for all nations, and sometimes one unit covers multiple roles. Shinuyama has their amazing Bakemono Sorcerer to act as their diversity mage, ritualist mage and capstone mage. T'ien Ch'i has two cap-only mages which are both diversity mages (it's hard to get above a 2 in any one path with T'ien Ch'i)... however, T'ien Ch'i also has a super-cheap, super-efficient recruit-anywhere researcher with the minister of magic. It's really hard for me to point at which of those three is their "capstone mage".

For Jomon I'm seeing the following line-up:
some cheap h1 priest, maybe amphibious or ocean-themed
an amphibious h2 priest (UW transport, chance of getting W1)
five fold monk (same as LA Jomon)
Shugenja (same as LA Jomon)
Omnyo-ji (same as LA Jomon)

And then, we have the following if we want to emphasize Recruit-anywhere for MA Jomon:
Sendatsu E1N1A1F1 + 2.1xENAF, need not eat, 250 gold, map move-1.
This guy would be like Atlantis' King of the Deep or Pangaea's Pan: expensive, non-sacred and magically powerful. He's meant to be a mountain ascetic (like the Shugenja) but Master Shugenja was already taken so I had to fish around wikipedia for another, similar word. Since you'll already be able to recruit a W3+1xAA/EE/FF/NN sacred dragon from the ocean, I felt like having a water-less mountain mage (whose upkeep is the same since he's non-sacred) would help separate the two capstone casters. He also doesn't tread on the Omnyo-ji because of his complete lack of astral magic. He is cheaper than the King of the Deep or the Pan but the Pan generates freespawn and the King of the Deep has stats well beyond that of a flimsy, size-2 human.

If we want to emphasize Capital-only then we have the following:
1) Sendatsu E2N2A2F1H1 + 1.1xENAF, sacred, need not eat, map move-2 for 300 gold. Now he's almost a carbon copy of the Bakemono Sorcerer but not old, not an ogre and not recruit-anywhere.
2) Five Fold Yamabushi H2 + 1xAA/EE/FF/NN/WW, should have a magic weapon and decent stats, 200 gold, good for spamming one of the five signs, as well as handing him a crystal shield for smites/divine blessing/bigger five sign spam.

If you go recruit-anywhere then you won't need much in the way of recruitable sacreds (maybe the same Sohei and Yamabushi from LA Jomon). If you want to emphasize the capital then you should give them something good... though I'm not sure what that would be exactly.

[shatner]

So much of Dominions is about hiring gobs of mages so you out-research and out magic your opponents. There are so many commanders and priests that are rarely, if ever hired, which I find a pity, and frankly a little boring. While I certainly don't want a nation where every commander has some awe-inspiring power that makes them comperable to a high-end mage, I do enjoy it if the lesser commanders have something about them that makes them interesting.

Take MA T'ien Ch'i as an example. They have:
1) An H1 priest that prevents bad events AND unlocks a nice money-making good event
2) An H2 priest that prevents bad events, causes good events and unlocks 2 nice, money-making good events
3) A cheap commander with a big patrol bonus and an immunity to seduction
4) A high stealth spy
5) A cheap, recruit-anywhere researcher
6) A pair of weak mages with weak healing
7) A weak mage which prevents bad events

And everything else is either normal or a is a mage which inherently justifies itself. That's a lot of character and it makes the nation more interesting.


So let's look at the potential line up for Jomon and see if we can make it similarly interesting:
*1) An H1 amphibious priest who auto-casts water ward at the start of battle. Place this priest among a group of shrimp soldiers (or what-have-you) and at the start of battle they'll enjoy a nice defense boost. That might make you want to bother hiring an h1 priest at one or two points early in the game.
*2) An H2 amphibious priest who can lead 10 to 25 troops under water. May have a chance of getting W1.
3) A monk mage-priest who can cast one of five unique spells
4) A mage who prevents bad events and summons an ethereal bird at the start of battle
*5) A commander who can take 40 troops sailing
6) A high stealth assassin
*7) A cheap commander with a nice patrol bonus

Commanders with an * next to them are new; having been thought-up by one of the suggestions in this thread or is contained in Legowarrior's original post. While none of these ideas will make or break the nation, it will make it more interesting. I think making a commitment to character will help us going forward on this brainstorming.

[legowarrior]

Okay, I'll briefly go through my thoughts, and people can shoot them down or alter them as they see fit. Also, I use the same rule of thumb in this as I do in my research, KISS (Keep it simple stupid). I will fail to properly use KISS here, as I fail in my research, but that is my starting block.

Sites
Enclave of the Ryu - 2 Water
Imperial Shrine - 1 Pearl, 1 Air, 1 Earth

Castle Units
Ashigaru Spearman (Yari)- Same is later era

Ashigaru Bowmen (Shortbows) - Similar to bandits without stealth

Attendent (Naginata) - Similar Stat to later era Samurai but with less protection (Jingasa instead of Kabuto)

Attendant (NO-Dachi) - Same as a above

Samurai Archer - Similar stat to O-ban or Go-Hatamoto, but with the weapons and armor of the Samurai Archer.

Samurai Cavalry - Same Stat line of Cavalry but with Samurai Armor instead of heavy samurai armor. (Might do an archer version, but mount archery comes later in the history of Japan)

?Wokou - Two Wakizashi, Samurai Armor, no helmets, although not from the correct period, they fit the era, don't you think?

?Onni-Bushi - Naginata, Samurai Armor, Jingasa, Immune to Seduction, Patrol Bonus. High Morale, but everything else is basic. Build them to patrol a region. Female units that existed.

Shrine Units - everywhere
None

Underwater units
Shrimp Soldier - Same as later era

Shark Warrior - Same as later era

Capital specific
Enclave of the Ryu (Site)
Shark Warriors - Same as above

Imperial Shrine (Site)
?Miko - Sacred Bow (true story) Imperial Robe, Jingasa,
Idea - When blessed, bows do double damage to undead and demons (Can that be done?)

Castle Leaders
Gokenin - Same as later era, but without heavy samurai armor, and with longbow.

Mounted Gokenin - Same as later era but without heavy samurai armor

?Jito - Wakizashi, Ashigaru Armor, Jingasa, Weaker, decent leader with patrol bonus. Like the Eunuch, but with all parts attached

Shugo - Better version of the Mounted Gokenin.

?Wokou Captain - Same as the unit. Decent Leader (40) and has sailing and 25% of Air and 25% of Water (7/16 chance of a magic user, 1/16 chance of having both)

Shrine
Monk of the five folds - As a the later eras

Laboratory
?Shugenja - Same as later era but more powerful (has an extra FAWEN availabe, remember, magic is easier in the MA)

Onmyo-ji - Same as later era, but younger, and maybe a better chance of predicting events. I don't know.

Shrine/Laboratory
?Envoy of the Ryu - Holy 1, Water 1, +1 FAWEN. Amphibious and can take 10 units underwater. Basically a cool priest of water, with some magic.

Underwater
Ryujin - Same as later era

Crab General - Same as later era

?Envoy of the Ryu - Same as above

Capital Specific
Enclave of the Ryu
Ryujin - Same as above and the later era

Imperial Shrine
?Saigu - H2, +1 Astral, +1 FAWEN, Immune to Seduction, Healing 50%
Female relatives of the Emperor, chosen to be trained as priests.

Spells available -
Summon Karasu Tengu
Ambush of Tigers
Summon Konoha Tengus
Contact Dai Tengu
Contact Nushi
Contack Kitsune
Contact Jigami
Contact Mori-no-kami
Sommun Ujigami
Contact Kaijin
Contact Tatsu
Summon Kenzoku
Summon Goz Mezu
Contact Yama-no-kami
Teaching Sign
Fear-not Sign
Welcome Sign
Earth-Touching Sign
Meditation Sign


Break down
Cheap H1 priest - Not really, you have the monks with there cool spells.

Better priest - 2, the Envoy and the Saigu, the Saigu has astral, making her good for communions, but she is capital only, while the envoy with teaching sign becomes a better priest on the battlefield.

Cheap mage - Monks of the Five Fold

Diversity Mage - The Shugenja and the Onmyo-ji. Especially the Shugenja, since you are hoping for 2 air, to get Dai Tengu, 2 earth to get Tatsu, but everything else is do able.

Ritualist Mage - Ryujin

Capstone Mage - Combination of the Ryujin, but also the Saigu. With Communions, she will be an awesome Master I think. Might give her another path.

I didn't use the more power amphibious mage, because I wanted to keep holy a little weaker in the middle era then the later era.

[shatner]

Your proposed line-up seems fine, overall. However, I have a few critiques and counter-proposals:

Wokou Captain: this guy doesn't need to be a capital-only commander. LA Marignon, for example, can hire the Chartmaker or the Captain anywhere, and they're basically the same unit as the Wokou (the Chartmaker even has no starting magic plus 1xAS despite this being in the Late Era). If you feel uncomfortable making him recruit-anywhere as he is currently, go ahead and drop the magic paths. If this guy is forced to compete against the rest of your commanders for your capital recruitment slot, it's unlikely he'll ever get recruited... which would be a real pity.

Miko: the only on-bless effect I know of is Mictlan's Eagle Warriors gaining flight while blessed. I don't know if double damage to undead and demons is a viable on-bless effect; I'll leave that to be answered by one of the more veteran modders.

Shugenja and Onmyo-ji: I'm not a big fan of identical units having different stats between eras unless there is a compelling reason to do so. T'ien Ch'i is not made worse because it's Master of the Way is the same in all three ages, but it does make sense that the Mictlan Priest (same in EA and LA) was changed in the Middle Era because of them dropping blood magic. Making the Onmyo-ji younger or a better fortune-teller smacks of change for the sake of change. And if you are going to give the Shugenja a second AEFWN random, you may as well just keep the Master Shugenja instead, since they'll be almost identical.

Saigu: Having a cap-only healer priest is fine and I agree with your desire to keep MA Jomon from having strong priests. However, the Saigu is eclipsed as a mage by the Onmyo-ji. This makes it's claim to the role of "awesome communion master" rather dubious because the Onmyo-ji will be more numerous (and thus more likely to have whatever path combination you want, such as Fire + Astral for astral fire spam) and have higher/more paths than the Saigu. True the Saigu will be able to act as a communion-enhanced priest but the divine spells aren't impressive enough to justify this cap-only commander, in my opinion. And that includes all the various sign spells that only Jomon gets; they're nice but more of a novelty than a strategy changer, even after CBM beefed them up a bit. This unit will need to either distinguish itself from the Onmyo-ji path-wise OR gimmick-wise. The former can be accomplished by giving them doubled random paths (like the Ryujin). The latter can be accomplished by giving them two forms, one which automatically casts communion master at the start of a battle, and one which automatically casts communion slave at the start of a battle... that's pretty different and cool right there.

Ryujin: I think the Ryujin is a somewhat awkward commander who was originally added to the LA Jomon sundae as a little cherry on top; nice but more of a garnish for the nation. I mean, Ryujin are pretty neat in the Late Era where 5.1 mages are a big deal and getting a 3 in any one path is rare, but I think that in the middle era they are much too expensive for what they offer. For an MA nation, I think we should look at the Couatl for guidance balancing them because the two are very similar units (cold blooded, flying, sacred and very expensive). Shrangrila00 posits a similar thought over in the "Scales for Jomon" thread, which I wanted to reproduce below.

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

Come to think of it, how do you use Ryujin? There are so many contradictions. It has ridiculous mobility in dragon form, reasonable stats, and sacred, which says raiding thug, but they can't bless themselves and nothing else can and keep up. They can still thug even without a bless, but with only 1 slot in dragon form plus the cold blooded problem, it's really lackluster and easily killed for a 500 gold commander. Even the obvious buff for them, Breath of Winter, is useless since the same cold scales to empower it will kill the Ryujin. The only synergy I've been able to come up with is summoning a Dai Tengu and some additional tengu, giving it a crystal shield so it can cast divine bless and storm, and bring along Ryujin in dragon form so you have an entire flying army of storm immune casters, but even that sacrifices some of the Ryujin's mobility.

Now, if they have a priest level (their description says they spread their father's dominion which suggests some priestly power) and/or aren't cold blooded at least in dragon form, they'd be awesome, but as it is, my underwater forts tend to not recruit any commanders most turns.

[shatner]

Oh, and if this is meant to be a nation focused on/ruled by the Ryujin, it should probably have a heat preference of +1... what with their dragon overlords being cold blooded.

[legowarrior]

You bring up some great points. The Wokou captain should be available anywhere, and the Seigu isn't good enough.

About units changing over time, you do see it a lot, in the celestrial master, most of the Abysian units and the like. Same name, new spheres.

I'm not 100% convinced of the +1 heat yet.

What can we do with the Shugenjas and the Onmy-ji?

[shatner]

Well, the Shugenja is supposed to be a mountain hermit; he's even got mountain survival. That says to me earth and air. Furthermore, you mentioned earlier how important E2 and E1A1 is for the summons tied to those paths. As such, rather than have the Shugenja be E1 + 2xAEFWN (thus diminishing your chances of getting E2 and E1A1), we can change it to E1 + 1xAEFWN + 1xAE. That way you have a 100% chance of getting E2 or A1E1, and a 1-in-5 chance of getting either E3 or E1A2. That keeps them useful but still less magically powerful than the Master Shugenja. Since these guys are map move-2, they'll probably be your go-to mage for offensive battlefield casting (bladewind, legions of iron, destruction, lightning bolt, arrow fend, etc.).

For the Onmyo-ji... hmmm. You can make him younger if you'd like... it's a nice touch even though it has only the tiniest impact on their performance in-game. You could make them map move-2; that'd make a big difference between the MA and LA versions. Or you could give them recuperation and include some text about them recovering from non-fatal injuries quickly as a result of their near immortality. Other than Map Move-2, these are all minor changes but I'm not seeing a need to improve the Onmyo-ji in an important way, like giving them additional magic paths or flight. Having a recruit-anywhere 4.1 path mage (with a max path of 2) is about normal for the middle era.

As far as the Seigu, you'll have to map out the conceptual space you want that unit to fill before I can offer any further suggestions. If you want it to be a key player in communions, you'll need to make her a better version of the Onmyo-ji or do something neat like the auto-communion master/communion slave idea I had. If you want her to be something else... hmm, what are our options?
1) Mage++. Lots of nations' cap-only mage is just a better version of their run-of-the-mill mage. You can do something crazy like give her S2 + 1xAA/EE + 1xFF/NN/WW + 1.1xAEFNW. Boom! Instant, superior version of the Shugenja and Onmyo-ji. Make her old and/or map move-1 and you have yourself a reasonably balanced, high-caliber mage.
2) Super awesome researcher. Like LA Bogarus' Staret; lots of paths and a research bonus.
3) Super cheap. If you want to accept that MA Jomon is going to hire a huge pile of Shugenjas and/or Omnyo-jis then you can make the Seigu as good a caster as either but make her slightly cheaper AND sacred. Since you'll have Ryujin and summons to help reliably break into the higher tier spells, you can more easily get away with the cap-only mage being a magical light-weight but super-efficient researcher.
4) Thuggy. Give her good stats, helpful self-buff paths (air, nature, earth, astral), sacred + at least H1 and maybe stealth. Once your gem income and construction research comes online, hand her some gear and send her out raiding.
5) Special Spell Caster. Create some more of those five-sign spells but make them require H2 and A2/E2/F2/N2/W2 (and make her paths be H2 + 1xAA/EE/FF/NN/WW). Then when you want someone to cast the "wide scale air-shield, moral boost and lightning resistance sign", or the "remove fatigue and give reinvig-2 to a cluster of casters sign" you hire Siegus. Just make sure you make those new spells appropriately placed in the research tree.
6) Unit Spawn. Give her a summon allies ability that lets her spawn something worth spending a cap-only mage turn spawning.
7) Economy Boost. Give her abilities like fortune-telling, causes good events or lowers unrest. That way just having them around is passively boosting your economy.

There's more but that should be enough to get to brainstorming over.

[kianduatha]

I disagree on the Saigu--the idea is there and they are a very valuable addition to your lineup. They'd be better with a second random(or even better a linked random so they get 2 in a path all the time), but even as-is they're terrific force enhancers. You get easy access to H3 and up, power of the spheres, reinvig in communions(mmm), and a more efficient base to start arrow fending guys. No need for something spectacular.

The Ryuujin is...nice. They're highly mobile, specialized force multipliers. You can really mess with your enemies by constantly shifting what magical support your different armies have. I used to think they were overpriced, but I've grown out of that.