Tien Chi Default

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by rabelais:
Speaking of tien Chi, I'm on turn 18 of a multiplayer game with luck +3 and I have gotten ZERO heros.

Is this a bug, or am I just insanely unlucky?


Rabe the Coward Magnet

You are only slightly unlucky, with luck +3 you average 1 hero every sixteenth turn or so.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by ywl:
Another question about Tien Chi: does anybody else feel that Spring & Autumn theme is actually stronger than the default?

Not really. Default T'ien C'hi gets some of the best cavalry in the game (including some of the best sacred cavalry), and they can take order scales. Their better archers, crossbowmen, and infantry are just icing on the cake.

They do play very differently though. I play default T'ien C'hi as an army-heavy nation with good magical backup, whereas S&A lives and dies with its mages.

[Gateway103]

Originally posted by jaif:
Noob question: what line are these spells located in? Actually, more broadly is there a reference somewhere for all national spells? Or even better, a blow-by-blow description of all the nations so I don't have to start a new game with each new nation/theme to figure them out?

-Jeff

There is a thread entitled "Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells" in the forum, sticked at the top. Or use this link http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...4;t=000459;p=1 and scroll down near the end to Zen's post.

Note not all of the information are necessarily 100% up to date, in fact they probably are not as the post was made Feb. 3rd, 2004, but for the most part it should be adequate. Perhaps someone can make addenum to it including any corrections and V2.08 changes (e.g. Golden Era not included yet).

-Gateway103

[ March 21, 2004, 21:14: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

[ywl]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ywl:
Another question about Tien Chi: does anybody else feel that Spring & Autumn theme is actually stronger than the default?

Not really. Default T'ien C'hi gets some of the best cavalry in the game (including some of the best sacred cavalry), and they can take order scales. Their better archers, crossbowmen, and infantry are just icing on the cake.

They do play very differently though. I play default T'ien C'hi as an army-heavy nation with good magical backup, whereas S&A lives and dies with its mages.

---

You love cavalry in general? It's hard for me to imagine their crossbowmen and archers as icing on the cake, rather than being the cake .

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by ywl:
You love cavalry in general? It's hard for me to imagine their crossbowmen and archers as icing on the cake, rather than being the cake .

Different strokes for different folks. Yes, I really do like cavalry in general. Expensive and vulnerable to many things though they may be, I do find cavalry very useful. Heavy cavalry, that is, and the only cavalry that beats the Red Guard is the Black Templar and the Knights of the Chalice. The standard Imperial Horsemen that can be recruited in all fortresses are not too bad either, and the Heavy Horseman combines an archer with high protection (14) with the standard lance attack of cavalry in case of close combat, which allows you to have him very close to the frontline.

Qualification: I do not find cavalry all that useful on its own, as all-cavalry armies are hideously expensive, but as flankers and pursuers that ensure that few enemies manage to flee there are none better amongst the recruitable troops, and sometimes cavalry manages to chew up the entire enemy rear. Cavalry has the staying power and the offensive punch that recritable flying units lack.

[Okay, I tell a lie. Cavalry does not make the best recruitable flanker: Niefel Giants are even better flankers and pursuers, but they are sort of their own Category ]

T'ien C'hi heavy cavalry has the considerable advantage that the national mages have paths that enable them to negate several of the vulnerabilities of cavalry. (Arrow fend/storm/mist/anti-magic)

Try Red Guards with a fire-9 or a water-9 blessing.

[tinkthank]

I feel that S&A is not weaker and personally is stronger, but that is because I still dont understand the default theme. CMs rock in S&A, and together with DoHFires they make perfect hit-and-runners too.

Oddly enough, I almost NEVER get the (excellent) Master of Five Elements, but stick to the highly mobile CMs, but that may be due to my pretender choice. With two randoms on the CM, I almost always get an Earth fairly soon, and with high luck scales I can also usually get the healing female Hero with nice nature.

And I have learned to live with the troops. The archers are nothing to sneeze at (with wind guide and flame arrow), and I have a use for all the troops except those ridiculous mounted bowmen (let them shoot when guarding a commander!).

[rabelais]

I think the attraction of the MoFE's over the CM's is that they are an even more fabulous research buy, craft very well, and can plausibly get 2 earth, which enables the EarthBoot/dwarven hammer progression.

I've never seen a CM with 2 earth, and outside of ashkasic record/empowering , there isn't any other way to find those yummy earth sites.

Nobles are MUCH better with Faithful/Lead shield/airshield armor than other non earth combos.

Rabe the Aristocrat Wanna be

[ywl]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ywl:
You love cavalry in general? It's hard for me to imagine their crossbowmen and archers as icing on the cake, rather than being the cake .

Different strokes for different folks. Yes, I really do like cavalry in general. Expensive and vulnerable to many things though they may be, I do find cavalry very useful. Heavy cavalry, that is, and the only cavalry that beats the Red Guard is the Black Templar and the Knights of the Chalice. The standard Imperial Horsemen that can be recruited in all fortresses are not too bad either, and the Heavy Horseman combines an archer with high protection (14) with the standard lance attack of cavalry in case of close combat, which allows you to have him very close to the frontline.

Qualification: I do not find cavalry all that useful on its own, as all-cavalry armies are hideously expensive, but as flankers and pursuers that ensure that few enemies manage to flee there are none better amongst the recruitable troops, and sometimes cavalry manages to chew up the entire enemy rear. Cavalry has the staying power and the offensive punch that recritable flying units lack.

[Okay, I tell a lie. Cavalry does not make the best recruitable flanker: Niefel Giants are even better flankers and pursuers, but they are sort of their own Category ]

T'ien C'hi heavy cavalry has the considerable advantage that the national mages have paths that enable them to negate several of the vulnerabilities of cavalry. (Arrow fend/storm/mist/anti-magic)

Try Red Guards with a fire-9 or a water-9 blessing.

---

I found the contrary - most nations have better cavalry than Tien Chi's, except for their heavy horsemen with bow. Tein Chi's cavalry has low protection comparing to the others. Even Man's regular knights have better stat than them.

I guess the reason is you're playing with high blessed effects, which I usually find impractical. But different people play the game differently. It's no big surprise there.

[Chris Byler]

I believe the M5E is also immune to Magic Duel which is a notorious weakness of the Celestial Masters (of both normal and S&A).

I think "small" mages like Master of the Way can be used on the battlefield - just don't expect one Master of the Way to perform like a CM or Arch Theurg. A Master of the Way costs as much as eight normal soldiers and will perform roughly at that level. If he kills three or four normal soldiers in one battle he's doing pretty well.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by ywl:
I found the contrary - most nations have better cavalry than Tien Chi's, except for their heavy horsemen with bow. Tein Chi's cavalry has low protection comparing to the others. Even Man's regular knights have better stat than them.

Man's regular knights have better stats? Only if you like MR 10 on expensive units. I do not. I hate low MR on expensive units. There are so many spells, even fairly cheap spells, that can neutralise a small number of dangerous troops if they have low MR. Take Shadow BLast, for instance, which will wipe out a force of MR 10 troops (like standard knights) while only damaging a force of MR 12 troops (like the Red Guard), or the ever dangerous paralyse or soul slay spells, which can rip a cavalry charge to shreds - if you use low MR cavalry. Absent magic and absent blessings, I would agree that Man's regular knights had better stats, but those factors are not necessarily absent.

Likewise, I value high morale on expensive units and especially on flankers, as beginning to flee while you are flanking an enemy that is still capable of fighting is a losing proposition, and any sacred unit gets a +3 morale when blessed. That effectively means that Red Guards have 18 morale - which beats all non-sacred cavalry hands down.

So, if we compare on a nation by nation basis:

• Abysia: no cavalry
• Arcoscephale: inferior lanceless low-morale cavalry
• Atlantis: no cavalry
• Caelum: no cavalry
• C'tis: no cavalry
• Ermor: no cavalry
• ...Ashen Empire: knights of the unholy sepulchre are decidedly inferior to T'ien C'hi's cavalry - but they do not cost money. On the other hand, they evaporate when the opponent brings along priests. Overall: inferior
• Jotunheim: the wolf rider is decidedly inferior
• ...Niefelheim: no cavalry, but the Niefel Giant beats any cavalry any day and is as swift as slow cavalry. It also costs 115% more.
• ...Utgard: no cavalry
• Machaka: The Heavy, Imperial, and Red Guard beats the Spider Knights any day, but the Black Hunter is stronger than the Red Guard. It also costs 70% more. Even so, Machaka has the edge in pure quality here. (And the Hunter Spiders look cooler)
• Man: The Knight of Avalon is powerful indeed, but he is hideously expensive in resources and he is not sacred, which gives the edge to the Red Guard of T'ien C'hi if you use blessing effects. If not, the Knight of Avalon wins hands down
• ...Last of the Tuatha: the Cu Shee and the light cavalry are decidedly inferior
• Marignon: Those sacred Knights of the Chalice are truly supermen. At their price (29% more expensive than the Red Guard) they had better be. Unit for unit the Knights of the Chalice are stronger, gold piece for gold piece I am not so sure
• Michtlan: no cavalry
• Pangaea: the Centaur cataphract is inferior. It has low morale, low damage, and is non-sacred.
• Pythium: lower morale, MR, damage, and being non-sacred means that I value the Serpent cataphract rather less than T'ien C'hi's cavalry, despite the cataphract's protection bonus and the fact that it lives twice (or rather, the serpent fights after the rider is killed)
• ...Serpent Cult: with the Serpent Cataphract sacred, it is a much better unit. It still suffers from low MR and damage, but being blessed helps its morale and can make it a very strong unit with a blessing effect. This one beats the Red Guard unless you are up against heavy magic
• R'lyeh: no cavalry
• Ulm: Despite their incredibly low defense (9), Black Knights rule so long as they do not face magic. They can face any conventional threat with glee. Against magical nations, the T'ien C'hi cavalry is better though, as there is a lot of difference between MR 9 and MR 12, and blessings only tip the scale further towards T'ien C'hi. OTOH, Red Guards are capital only, and Black Knights beat Imperial Horsemen hands down
• ...Iron Faith: Black Templars are sacred Black Knights with an extra point of magic resistance, which still leaves them with the low MR of 10. They are better than Red Guard if you do not face heavy magic. On the other hand, they cost 29% more, and if you face heavy magic, they drop like flies.
• Vanheim: Red Guard, meet your master. The Van is probably the best cavalry in existence despite its low damage potential, because it is exceptionally hard to kill. High MR and defense coupled with glamour means that the Van can survive many things that others cannot. It may only have 13 protection, but you need to hit the damn thing in the first place. Since the Van is also sacred, it can be made into a truly exceptional unit with a good blessing effect. Add to that the cost of 70 gold and 16 resources and the fact that it can be recruited in all castles, there can be no doubt. The Van is the best cavalry in existence.

In conclusion, I find that preciously few nations have better cavalry than T'ien C'hi, and that most of those that can be considered contenders either have cavalry that is awfully vulnerable to MR dependent spells or suffer from the fact that their cavalry is much more expensive than the Red Guard.