DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert? - Page 2

Gurachn · #11 September 17th, 2011, 03:35 AM

Thanks iCaMp,
Great site, with a bunch of pics I haven't seen before.
Yeah its looking like the only option is to start from scratch, as I finally dug up an old copy of SP3 and installed it, but couldn't get it to run. No short cuts there, it seems!

I have some pretty decent reference maps (Martin Woodrow's, 'The Last Valley' is a particularly good source) and fairly detailed oob's for both the French and VM for the period March-May 1954.
I also have some pics I took of the area last month, but they won't be of much more than general use as the look of the area has changed significantly in the last half century.

I suspect though, that it will be a while before I am able to devote the necessary time to a project of this magnitude.
Heck, its going to take me a fair bit of time to get familar with the tools before I can even get started!

I don't suppose any of the fine scenario designers/mappers here would be interested in taking a shot at putting together a campaign for this?
I would be very pleased to hand over the info I have and take care of any additional research needed, if there were someone keen to handle the nuts and bolts of putting it into the game.

RazGator · #12 September 18th, 2011, 10:45 PM

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

Gurachn · #13 September 19th, 2011, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazGator

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

Hi RazGator,
Thanks for the link.
I actually already have a copy of the topo map that Ray Smith based that one on. Unfortunately it's a USGS map from 1966, and it seems that the terrain in the area, especially the course of the Nam Youn, has changed a fair bit since '54.
In the years after the battle there was a tremendous amount of construction also, so the road lines also are a bit off from where they ran during the battle.
Ray also seems to be a bit out with his placements of some of the firebases.

I've been piecing together a number of maps/photos/diagrams from March-April '54, and attempting to overlay them with this topo and another I have, and am getting pretty close to having a decently detailed and scaled outline of the ground as it stood during the period.
I've even overlayed it with a 50m. hex grid so it should be fairly useful as a basis for making a game map.

Unfortunately I have no experience with making SP maps or scenarios.
Might you be interested in a bit of collaboration?

Gurachn · #14 September 22nd, 2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RazGator

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

I'm mainly focusing on the Northern and Central firebases at the moment, but I have done a bit of work on the area down towards Isabelle (see sample)

If you like I could send you a copy of the area between Isabelle and Claudine.

-G

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #15 September 22nd, 2011, 12:41 PM

Have just started following this thread and I hope it gets main streamed into the game, unless I missed something and it's already available in the game? But if I may take the liberty to recommend a couple of excellent books on the topic. Both written by Frenchman one who would die in South Vietnam and the next served as an officer in the French Army two years after the battle. When published in 1966 it's purported that this book gave Pres. Johnson pause about our involvement in Vietnam.

1. Hell in a Very Small Place: The Siege of DIEN BIEN PHU by BERNARD B. FALL Pub. 1966. He was killed by a booby trap in Feb. 1967 in South Vietnam.

2. Valley of Death: The Tragedy at DIEN BIEN PHU that led America into the Vietnam War by Pulitzer Prize winning author TED MORGAN Pub. 2010. Extensively uses recently declassified documents from all involved.

Basically I subscribe to know your enemy just asked how that worked out for Lt.Gen. Harold G. Moore(Ret.) at Ia Drang, who it's well known studied this battle in depth as well as the French involvement in Indochina. I believe he even read Dr. Falls "Streets of Joy" that covers Frances overall involvement.

Thanks for the time, I really like the idea of all this for what's it worth.

Regards,
Pat

Gurachn · #16 September 25th, 2011, 07:26 AM

Thanks Fastboat,
I read "Hell in a very small place" when I was based in Germany back in the '80s, and it really put the hook in me. I'm going to have to get another copy of that and re-read it.
'Street without Joy' is also excellent.

Since my last post I managed to find another few aerial photos of the valley during the period in question, and think I have just about got the shape of the river and the locations of the main firebases nailed.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #17 September 25th, 2011, 01:55 PM

Thank you for the title correction and other. If you don't have these already maybe they will help.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums.../t-133999.html
Will probaly have register with them, normally they have good stuff.
http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/
But the photos are captioned in French, somehow I don't think this is an issue!?!
http://www.travelpod.com/photos/0/Vi...ien%20Phu.html
http://pathannay.wordpress.com/2011/...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...ap&FORM=IDFRIR
It looks like the Miltary Photo has this coveded pretty well. Hope some this will be useful to you.

Regards,
Pat

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #18 September 25th, 2011, 03:57 PM

Last one promise.

1. Military Photo site just click on the "Full version" and the photos will come up on page one.

2. http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...gle-earth.html
GOOGLE 3-D satellite, it really shows the advantage the Vietnamese had with the high ground. You can clearly make out the French base sites including the runway, Khe Sanh comes to mind here, though, I make no judgements for those that were actually there a lesson learned from my father who saw the fields of Italy, Korea and Nam on a personal note. You might need to add the GOOGLE 3D add on, however it's safe, as none of my safeguards detected anything.

3. Historically you just can't ignore the importance of this battle and the longer term implications it had on policy.

Regards,
Pat

Gurachn · #19 September 25th, 2011, 11:15 PM

Thanks a ton for those links, Pat.
A few that I hadn't seen before, including an excellent overhead shot of the main French base south of the Airfield that clarifies a few questions I had.
That google 3D stuff is cool too. The red marker is actually on Eliane 2, held by a mixed group of Moroccan tirailleurs and Foreign legion Paras, it was the site of some of the fiercest fighting of the battle. They held the position even after the Viet Minh detonated a huge mine (the massive crater is still visible today), and fought until the last bullet and grenade.
Epic stuff!
The long term implications are undeniable, but it's really the grim, desperate and unrelenting nature of the siege that really gets to me.
Cheers,

Grant

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #20 September 26th, 2011, 07:42 PM

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat