Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Add
BV308:
Copy Swedish BV308 as is.

Should say
"Copy German BV 206S as is." (Unit 382)

Originally Posted by dmnt

ItPsv Leo2:
Copy unit 321
Update hull and top armour to match Leopard 2A4S. Update speed. Revise FC and RF numbers for the original as well; it has been told to be good enough even against low flying near Mach 1 speed aircrafts.

Should read:
Add LRF to old 1990 one (http://www.military-today.com/artillery/marksman.htm) and revise the FC, for example 110 from the German Gepard which is pretty close to ItPsv 90 Marksman.

[dmnt]

REMOVE
Units 480, 481, 482: Nx60 Sissi Mtrs

The initial test batch of 60mm mortars was never extended to full order and certainly never got in the training. The reasons given were the inefficiency in snow, swamp and forest.

http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservilaiset/krh.pdf
(Finnish Mortar history from WW I to 2014)
"Sen sijaan 1990-luvulla tehdyt kokeilut 60KRH97 ja 81KRH97 eivät onnistuneet lainkaan. "
"Contrary to the examples before the 1990's experiments of 60KRH97 (60mm Mortar 1997) and 81KRH97 (81mm Mortar 1997) were no success at all."

On discussion forum, http://maanpuolustus.net/threads/kra...6.3673/page-21
"60KRH97:n testeissä todettiin, että lumessa 60 mm:n sirpalekranaatti on lähinnä pierua vastaava ilmiö"
"On the tests of 60KRH97 it was found out that in snow the effect of the 60 mm frag grenade is mostly comparable to a fart"

[dmnt]

Quick note:

Finns have implemented mounting Aero M134D used primarily in NH-90 this time in RG-32.

Pictures from Para Jaegars training camp:
https://twitter.com/AMattola1/status/654703208980287488

#UTJR in live fire excercise camp #RG32 mounted #Dillon Aero M134D machine gun [was] firing

(UTJR = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utti_Jaeger_Regiment)

[dmnt]

Quick notes (no SPMBT at hand, so no OOB unit numbers) on Finnish OOB:

No ATACMS or CM MLRS: http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...iles/76006562/

In 2008 Suomen Kuvalehti journal ran a story that the BUK SAM system is backdoored and vulnerable to electronic countermeasures: http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/koti...ljastui-aukko/
The concern seemed to be justified as FDF was quick to remove them from service and to find a replacement even though they were criticized of scrapping perfectly usable and efficient material. According to recent items this seems to be the case as this particular item was used as justification not to seek Russian aircrafts to replace the aging F-18 fleet.

MODIFY:
BUK-M1, end date 12/2012

REMOVE / SUSPEND:
M270 MLRS (CM, ATACMS) but not the mine version. When missiles are finally bought then add correct version.

[dmnt]

Quick follow-up on MLRS, no new information.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...6401454951626/

The purchase nudged a bit forwards as the MOD approved the procurement. The missile types are GMLRS AW and GMLRS UNITARY. Unless they cancel it yet another time.

[dmnt]

Lots of small changes and corrections.


MODIFY

Unit 101 - 40mm AAG

This upgraded Bofors was storaged from the 80's until it was removed in early 90's (according to multiple sources), yet no accurate date or year is given. However, references to the big "scrapping orgy" have been stated, and other artillery pieces have been put to end date 1991-1993.

Last date available: 12/1993


Unit 103 - 57mm AAG Radar

The 57mm AAG was removed in 2000. The non-radar unit has been properly put to end at 12/2000, but this one wasn't included.

http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/etusivu/tykit/

Last date available: 12/2000


Unit 201 - ITA Tuuli

The unfortunate hovercraft plan never went forward with the funding being cut off and the fleet left with only the unarmed prototype. It was storaged until a decision to scrap it was given in July 2013.

Last date available: 7/2013


Unit 205 - Igla Team

Missiles drive fuel expired and missiles were destroyed (replaced by Bolide missiles). No exact date given, but assumption of 20 years of shelf life -> 12/110

Last date available: 12/2010


Unit 210 - Bolide SAM

"Ilmatorjuntaohjus (05M):n varusmieskoulutus aloitettiin vuonna 2009."
"Anti-aircraft missile (05M) training started in 2009"
FDF site

Start date: 1/2009


Unit 321 - ItPsv 91 AA

This has been replaced with ItPsv Leo2 AA starting with 1/2016. It also had a laser range finder:

"Laseretäisyysmittarin mittausetäisyys on yli kahdeksan kilometriä."
"Laser range finder has a measuring distance of over eight kilometers."
http://web.archive.org/web/200709280...t/panssari.htm

Range finder: 22
Last date available: 12/2015


Unit 334 - Nasu SP-Mortar

Incorrect movement type Track, should be snowmobile as with other Nasu NA-140 units.

Movement type: 8 - Snowmobile


Unit 351 - ITO05 Unimog

ITO05 consists of vehicle firing platform and additional man protable platform connected to a shared radar. Therefore the 8 missiles available should be divided to 2 packs of 4 missiles.

"Varusmieskoulutus ilmatorjuntaohjus (05):llä aloitettiin vuonna 2007."
"Conscript training for AAM (05) commenced in 2007."
FDF site

Weapon 1 ammunition: 4
Weapon 2: copy of weapon 1
Start date: 1/2007


Unit 352 - Bandvagn RBS-70

No RBS-70 Mk2 in use, rename to Bandvagn Bolide and change weapon and start date to match unit 210. Also fix movement type to snowmobile.

Start date: 1/2009
Movement type: 8 - Snowmobile
Weapon 1: 138 - RBS-70 Bolide


Unit 357 - T-72M1 KMT-6 M2

T-72M1 was scrapped in 2006-2007. Other units have correct end dates but mine clearing version wasn't changed.

Last date available: 6/2007


REMOVE

Unit 207 - RBS-70 SAM

No RBS-70 Mk2 missiles were ordered beyond the initial test batch.

http://web.archive.org/web/200703142...stit/ito05.htm

"ITO2005 järjestelmän ohjus on RBS70 ohjusperheen uusin versio Bolide. Ohjuksen vaakaulottuvuus on kahdeksan ja pystyulottuvuus kuusi kilometriä ja siinä on sekä isku- että herätesytytin. Herätesytyttimellä on kyky havaita myös pienet maalit ja sen toimintaa voidaan halutessa viivästyttää toimittaessa suurta maalia vastaan. Tuhovaikutus perustuu esisirpaloituun taistelulataukseen sekä ontelopanoksen suunnattuun räjähdysvaikutukseen. ITO2005 järjestelmällä voidaan ampua myös muita RBS70 perheen ohjustyyppejä kuten MK1 ja MK2."
"ITO2005 system uses the newest version of RBS70 family, Bolide, as it's missile. The horizontal reach is eight and vertical 6 kilometers and it has both impact as well as proximity fuse. Proximity fuse is capable of detecting also small targets and it can be delayed if acting against a larger target. The delivery is a prefragmented HE and directed explosively formed penetrator. ITO2005 can also fire other RBS-70 family missile types such as MK1 and MK2"

(Sipri data)

(150) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM 2002 2005-2007 (150) $30 m deal (part of $120 m deal for ASRAD-R SAM systems)
(200) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM 2007 2008-2010 (200) SEK600 m ($85 m) deal
(100) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM (2009) 2012 (100) EUR26 m deal


ADD

Units
ItPsv Leo2 mentioned earlier in this topic. In service use from 1/2016
81mm Bv206 SP-Mortar, in service use from 1/2016
Bv308 (a.k.a. Bv206S), taken into service (in 2015?). 7.62mm MMG as the main weapon.
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a2...df?MOD=AJPERES


New weapons choices for basic units.
M72LAW EC, in use (2015?). Improved penetration.
LMG optics for 7.62 PKM, in use (2015?)
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a2...df?MOD=AJPERES

[DRG]

These will be the last OOB changes I will accept before the next patch is released for either of the games. I have more than enough to do as it is

[dmnt]

One final question before I start collecting data for the next round (OOB v10): To ease your work before submitting anything unusable to the forum, how should the Finnish Fighter-Bomber aircrafts be looked at?

After Paris peace treaty, the allied forces - heavily influenced by USSR - forbid Finland from having bombers (among others) until Finland after the re-unification of Germany withdrew from the parts of treaty limiting conventional arms. In 2015 Finland declared that it now had the bombing capability for the first time since 1945. There are fighter-bombers in Finnish OOB, so are they treated as "would could should" as in during the war the peace treaties are forgotten and it's back to business as usual or should the Finnish OOB be stripped of any bombers? Also, most of the aircrafts of OOB that have bombs or rockets didn't have them in real life.

I'll revise the F-18 fleet at least, but your decision will affect if I will submit corrections to the earlier aircrafts as well.

[DRG]

..The treaty covered aircraft with internal bomb bays the F-18 has EXTERNAL hardpoints and if an aircraft had those they are capable of bombing and had a real conflict erupted how long do you think it would take to place explosive ordnance on those wings ? Moot point given the treaty did not cover aircraft of that type. And given that the restictions don't apply to the F-18 WHY would you change any thing except to micromanage ordnance combinations? The only aircraft in the OOB with INTERNAL bomb bays was sold to Finland by Russia and there were only 4 of them and two were target tugs

Given the time period covered by the game and the total lack of any armed conflict involving Finland, Finlands inclusion in the game is a "would could should" as it is for many of the nations....the entire game is a what if "would could should"

Strange given the number of Finns who have contributed to that OOB over the years that's it's only now an "issue.,

If you have different ideas there is the mods forum... but I see no reason to change anything as there were no treaty limitations on fighter-bombers with external hard points. Were you SERIOUSLY going to suggest Finn aircraft be stripped of bombs ??

Don

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by DRG

..The treaty covered aircraft with internal bomb bays the F-18 has EXTERNAL hardpoints and if an aircraft had those they are capable of bombing and had a real conflict erupted how long do you think it would take to place explosive ordnance on those wings ? Moot point given the treaty did not cover aircraft of that type. And given that the restictions don't apply to the F-18 WHY would you change any thing except to micromanage ordnance combinations? The only aircraft in the OOB with INTERNAL bomb bays was sold to Finland by Russia and there were only 4 of them and two were target tugs

F-18 isn't what's the matter here - the restrictions applied 1947-1991. The treaty limited bombers with internal bays but in effect Finland had no bombing capability for the period and air forces never trained it until recent F-18 JDAM tests.

If you have different ideas there is the mods forum... but I see no reason to change anything as there were no treaty limitations on fighter-bombers with external hard points. Were you SERIOUSLY going to suggest Finn aircraft be stripped of bombs ??

My beef was mostly the BL755 CBU and then the rocket pods which were common in Mig 21 bis but which Finland didn't possess. And as I know it is all speculation and that "it has always been there" that is exactly why I asked if any input is wanted.

I'll let the old stuff pass and just concentrate on the F-18 fleet. I'll wait for the next version so that anything that's already on the list won't appear in here.