A simple thank you

[Richard]

PDF said:

Why don't Shrapnel offer that already ? I've been very impressed with the download system Stardock offers for their (GalCiv) and other games (look at totalgaming.net) for example ...

We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

[msew]

why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

[Ironhawk]

Richard said:
We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

But you are already hosting the download of the Dom2 Demo, which is the about the same size as the Retail Version as far as I can see. How would it be more complicated to just host a retail copy of the exe and have Demo functionality in place until a user enters a purchased CDKey?

On the topic of a download game being more or less easy than a CD based on in terms of piracy I have to disagree given the prevalence of pirated retail CD games. Particularly with the advent of p2p networks you dont even need a strong server in order for a malicious user to share out thier ripped executables.

And on a side note: download only games do not implicity require an Online manual. Look at how Spider Web Software does thier indy games. You download the exe, buy the CDKey, and then eventually you are shipped a CD and a manual as well. But as with most games (dom2 included) people rarely learn the game from the manual but rather from trial/error, in-game tutorials, and user-authored walkthroughs/FAQs.

And now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for voicing a disagreeing opinion I want to state for the record that I am very much appreciative of Shrapnel and Illwinter for Dom2 and by no means wish to make them lose money. My comments are solely in response to the running dialog in this thread.

[Richard]

msew said:
why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

Our experience with download games is they don't add sales to the books, and they open a game for much easier attempts to pirate the game.

Since most of our games do not offer copy protection, which is a choice of each developers and our recommendation, it doesn't make sense to put the manual into public domain by making it downloadable.

And there is no way any publisher, or developer, would consider putting the download file out for folks to distribute via a service like bit torrent. There is almost not way to control piracy that way, and how would you integrate that into a payment portal, etc.

Again we do download games, but only where it makes sense.

[Richard]

Ironhawk said:

But you are already hosting the download of the Dom2 Demo, which is the about the same size as the Retail Version as far as I can see. How would it be more complicated to just host a retail copy of the exe and have Demo functionality in place until a user enters a purchased CDKey?

There's also integration with the store software and other considerations. Also this is just going to complicate things at release. When we put the demo out, we have mirror sites to publish it. This helps the load out somewhat. Imagine having everyone who want's the game trying to download it from one server at the same time. With a demo people can deal with timeouts, with a paid copy of a game people are going to get pissed.

The other side of this is that it just frustrates most customers. As much as people like the idea, few have the network infrastructure to download a game without multiple interruptions. We get no complaints about folks downloading our demos, but we definetly get complaints from folks buying the game when they run into similiar problems. And finally there is the manual concern. Printed manuals prevent piracy more than a CD key, or other forms of copy protection, especially with a game like Dominions.

On the topic of a download game being more or less easy than a CD based on in terms of piracy I have to disagree given the prevalence of pirated retail CD games. Particularly with the advent of p2p networks you dont even need a strong server in order for a malicious user to share out thier ripped executables.

I agree, that's where a printed manual comes in. Other forms of copy protection are really useless in many cases.

And on a side note: download only games do not implicity require an Online manual. Look at how Spider Web Software does thier indy games. You download the exe, buy the CDKey, and then eventually you are shipped a CD and a manual as well. But as with most games (dom2 included) people rarely learn the game from the manual but rather from trial/error, in-game tutorials, and user-authored walkthroughs/FAQs.

Again that depends on the game. In the case of Dom 2 your probably right, but again that's something to consider for the future. And if we ship the CD and manual, then really we don't solve the original posters problem. He hates the complications of shipping a product to him.

And now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for voicing a disagreeing opinion I want to state for the record that I am very much appreciative of Shrapnel and Illwinter for Dom2 and by no means wish to make them lose money. My comments are solely in response to the running dialog in this thread.

No problem with a disagreement, but we've formed our opinions based on sales of downloadable products and CD products for 5 years. We were selling download products long before broadband was even a consideration.

[Arryn]

I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

[Richard]

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

Because retail is the enemy of a complex game, period. A game that complex in retail will have a large number of returns, and we won't be able to compete with the price of the game once it's price get's slashed after the first few months. You can't do retail and Online effectively, you have to do one or the other not both. As far as Stardock, you would have to ask them. We have done the research on this and it doesn't work. We have also been in retail before, and have had offers to put our games in retail, but we don't do that in service to our developers. We want them to make as much money as they can so they can make as many great games as possible.

As far as the download for some games, it's something we have to evaluate on a game by game basis. And if we do that then we have to forgo the printed Version. Doing both doesn't work.

[Arryn]

"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Stardock wrote their own package for that. Its kindof at the level that "shopping cart" sites were a few years ago. Those who have it working have probably written their own. The packages available are buggy and dangerous on security matters with peoples shopping info. The requirements to make it work are still being ironed out (such as, what does it take to handle the load of releasing a long-awaited game).

Of course NOW if someone wants to do a shopping cart site then what it takes, what package to download and install, what you need to pay and to whom in order to get one that wont put you in the headlines, thats all worked out. For Digital Downloads its all looking good, but its not there yet.

Everything has its pros and cons. Shrapnel could probably drop work on other things and write a package to gamble on breaking into the DD market early. But why? What they are doing is working fine.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. <much perfectly reasonable logic snipped>

Arryn you are such an expert on everything. Really.

But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast. What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing. Everyone at Shrapnel are gamers (according to their "about us" page) but that doesnt mean they have to do their business like a Dom2 newbie.