Dev Thinking on Balance?

[Norfleet]

Well, since this thread is now becoming increasingly clogged with non-developer commentary, without a dev having deigned to comment, I might include these insights from people who I think have managed to blackmail their way into being the beta testers, and as such, can probably be considered more skilled and knowledgeable than the rest of us:

Originally posted by Zen:
VQ is optimal hmm? Well, I'll be damned, I rarely use VQ's at all and I win 95% of all my games. But if dem's the facts, then I guess dem's the facts.

Originally posted by Jasper:
Vampire Queens have their points, but they're not that good. You just need to play with some different people.

So it would seem that least those closest to the throne believe that they are not all they're cracked up to be.

[Pirateiam]

Well, since this thread is now becoming increasingly clogged with non-developer commentary, without a dev having deigned to comment, I might include these insights from people who I think have managed to blackmail their way into being the beta testers, and as such, can probably be considered more skilled and knowledgeable than the rest of us:

Sigh....
No offense intended to beta testers but thier opinions are not the end all of knowing knowledge (I myself have been a beta tester for many games). If this were true then every game that came out would never need patches. The beta testers did a great job on Dominions II balancing, but many exploits surface later after extensive play by customers. This is common in most games on the market.

Norfleet, what I do not understand is that you are a skilled player no doubt, why are you so set in defending the VQ?? Would it not be more interesting and challenging with Gods more balanced???

[ May 04, 2004, 04:16: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

I thought some people were going on about how the Ermor themes are a tad too strong.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I thought some people were going on about how the Ermor themes are a tad too strong.

Actually I think the nations and units are extremely well balanced. It is the Gods that need to be looked at. Every God should be competitive and they simply are not. How many Crones have you seen in Multi? I see at least 2-3 VQ's per Multi.

[ May 04, 2004, 04:36: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

Have I mentioned that Ermor themes allow for crap like supercharged VQs? You've just gotten a ton of pretender points by sacrificing scales.

[Zapmeister]

Well, since this thread is now becoming increasingly clogged with non-developer commentary, without a dev having deigned to comment

I've been watching - I don't think either has come Online since the initial post.

This was just a question to them, and not intended to become a discussion. I could have used email, but I thought that the answer would interest everyone.

[Zapmeister]

No offense intended to beta testers but thier opinions are not the end all of knowing knowledge

If you think about it, a beta-tester is almost certain to deny an alleged imbalance. If he agreed, then the imbalance would have been eliminated in the beta-testing.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, since this thread is now becoming increasingly clogged with non-developer commentary, without a dev having deigned to comment, I might include these insights from people who I think have managed to blackmail their way into being the beta testers, and as such, can probably be considered more skilled and knowledgeable than the rest of us:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zen:
VQ is optimal hmm? Well, I'll be damned, I rarely use VQ's at all and I win 95% of all my games. But if dem's the facts, then I guess dem's the facts.

First, by that logic : I never use crones, and I lose all my games. Therefor, crones are overpowered. Second - no slight intended to Zen, but if he's winning 95% of all his MP games, he needs to try swimming in a bigger pond. Especially given diplomacy and alliances, I'd be amazed if anyone was winning 95% in a range of games / players.

Originally posted by Jasper:
Vampire Queens have their points, but they're not that good. You just need to play with some different people.

So it would seem that least those closest to the throne believe that they are not all they're cracked up to be.

---

Again - no insult meant to Jasper, nor Zen, nor anyother beta tester. But Beta Testers tend to think they know how the game is supposed to work, therefor they have foregone conclusions, prejudices, and don't really push the envelope.

And, in your analogy (which I'm not saying is apropos), "those closest to the throne" tend to be sycophants, yes-men, and assassins.

And yep, there are other pretenders almost as good as the VQ - maybe even better. But there's only one AllFather in any game, and only one Carrion Dragon, and 13 VQs.

Originally posted by Cainehill:
First, by that logic : I never use crones, and I lose all my games. Therefor, crones are overpowered. Second - no slight intended to Zen, but if he's winning 95% of all his MP games, he needs to try swimming in a bigger pond. Especially given diplomacy and alliances, I'd be amazed if anyone was winning 95% in a range of games / players.

That's nice of you to say, but I think it's you, who needs to swim in a bigger pond. You can lose all your games playing a VQ as well, that takes as much skill as losing with a Crone. You may be surprised but that's fine, it is precisely diplomacy and alliances why you can win 95% of your games.

Again - no insult meant to Jasper, nor Zen, nor anyother beta tester. But Beta Testers tend to think they know how the game is supposed to work, therefor they have foregone conclusions, prejudices, and don't really push the envelope.

No insult ment to Newbies, but they often have no idea what they are talking about at any given moment in time and constantly contridict themselves. Beta Testers are there to help provide a service and give perspective to the design of the game, not to whine about personal preference or playstyle.

And yep, there are other pretenders almost as good as the VQ - maybe even better. But there's only one AllFather in any game, and only one Carrion Dragon, and 13 VQs.

So if there are as many as good, maybe even better, why isn't the crusade to nerf them in full effect? Is it because you've been beaten with a VQ more often than the others? Or that it's easier to do for more nations? By your example, noone at all plays Rainbows or Bless Effects, only VQ's and combat pretenders. Which unfortunately is not the case so there must be a flaw in either your argument or your experiences.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
If you think about it, a beta-tester is almost certain to deny an alleged imbalance. If he agreed, then the imbalance would have been eliminated in the beta-testing.

That might be for huge budget games or maybe alot of other companies, but even the Developers for IW either state they didn't think of it, or didn't care/have enough time for something that they later find imbalanced. I'm fairly certain that most of the Beta Testers would fully admit if something they feel is genuinely wrong or inbalanced if they didn't happen to catch it. I may be giving too much credit, but considering how Dom2 came about and is progressing I don't think so.

[ May 04, 2004, 05:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Zapmeister]

By your example, noone at all plays Rainbows or Bless Effects, only VQ's and combat pretenders. Which unfortunately is not the case so there must be a flaw in either your argument or your experiences.

Obviously, Cainehill exaggerated to make the point, which is that VQs are disproportionally popular. And to my mind, that's the only real point worth making.

If, for whatever reason, people continue to prefer the VQ when they're playing to win, then clearly the game would be improved if something were done to reduce the frequency at which it is selected.