Proof of stupid AI spellcasting

[geo981010]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Then you should rename the thread PDF, because your example proves nothing.

This was a mistake of the strategic AI sending to the arena a mage that knew no combat spells (ie, had a little thau research, but no evo or alt research). Mages default to cast, if the mage just knows crap he will cast crap regardless of how good or bad the spell AI be.

Despite the nay-sayers, the spell AI is one of the best parts of the game. You want some proof? get the same mage, research evo1 & thau1 and send him to the arena...he will cast star fires instead of com master/slave. But you cannot plant melons & expect apples to grow.

Hmmm, I could go so far as to say the AI is ok, but that due to the nature of the spell complexity that this is a really complicated process that needs some improving. You really need special logic for a lot of special cases like this - it should prevent mages from casting Communion slave without having any mages to benefit from this, or communion master if there are no mages to be slaves possible.

And the mage would have been able to at least cast Twist Fate, so he did have one more good spell to cast. If nothing else, then I guess he should have entered melee after that. but let's face it, he was dead.

Besides specific spell quirks like the Communions, the AI does have other problems that cause some problems:
a) no concept of it's chance of successfully hitting a target. Like a Warlock trying to Nether Darts an lone final unit, while he should be Mind Burning.

b) no concept of it's chance of successfully beating MR. The AI loves to repeatedly attack a SC pretender with MR check spells in his own dominion with 20+ MR, while he could instead by taking out the calvary units riding down on him and destroying his line that are the more immediate threat. I'd like to factor in the closeness of the unit to the mage and to friendly troops, how long before it could be in range (ie flyers should have a higher rating here), and some threat level (HP, skills, etc) with some random factors so it doesn't just always strike a particular unit.

c) no concept of friendly fire losses. Same case as a, but this time your warlock nukes a good portion of your troops. Even worse if that warlock has an eye loss or blinded. There really should be some logic for checking whether area/multiple effect spells should be used or the 100 accuracy single target ones based on the size of the force facing you, and how likely your troops are to get hurt which takes into account the mages precision.

d) Does the AI still pick spells that are obviously lesser Versions of another? Like Blessing instead of Divine Blessing, or FirebLast instead of Fireball. Unless this was fixed recently, this was a concern in previous Versions.

e) Casting area effect protections spells in crowds. Breath of Winter, Soul Drain, Fire Shield, etc from mages that fry your nearby leaders/bodyguards is an annoying flaw. You learn very quickly to place mages who don't play nice away from others, but early on you just get pissed and later on you only occasionally get pissed as you will forget one. The one I forget about the most is a random magic 1 Fire mage who casts fireshield - have to remember to sort them out and name them properly so I don't forget!

Sure there are more too. I am not alone in basically scripting out all my battle mages first 5 spells, and I know I definitely restrict my research to prevent my mages from casting spells I think will cause more damage on my side than not. That's a sign that the AI could be improved.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by geo981010:
The one I forget about the most is a random magic 1 Fire mage who casts fireshield - have to remember to sort them out and name them properly so I don't forget!

Fire shield only affects units that hit the mage. There is no battlefield spell that gives a particular unit heat radiation.

[johan osterman]

Geo:

Your points a,b and c are mistaken. the AI does a calculation based on chance to hit MR, damage, tries to some extent to avoid friendly fire etc etc. Perhaps you do not think it wieghts friendly fire enough but it do these things.

[Wendigo]

George,
I do not think the AI rates the spells as castable/non castable, I think it rather hands out a value number to different spell+target comboes, and selects the spell with the highest number from a sample of alternatives. Thus useless spells will be cast even if their value is low, because there's no other option of higher value.

I do not want my mages & priests charging into melee if they have no usable spells, I do not think you want yours to do it either. If I tell'em to cast, I want them to cast.

On the matter of the AI targetting rules, I am pretty sure hps, big clusters of units & distance are taken into account, both in the spell choice & the target choice. SCs are a curse magnet, clusters of troops attract area spells/multiple effect spells, and mages often switch targets to hit whatever just showed up next square (not the 1st time I fly a SC towards a bunch of theurgs and get them to drop whatever crap they were casting & hit with multiple Star fires). You will not always agree with the choices made, but I see the AI often making better choices than many human opponents, so it's not like any fight that goes past the 5 scripted spells is doomed to spell missusing.

I gave an example of the AI doing better than me here:
thread

I only consider the breath of winter/soul drain complaint valid (and to a lesser extent the related friendly fire one), and maybe the AI should be better also at identifying elemental/poison damage & acting accordingly in order to raise protections..but apart from that I think it's extremely good.

Besides, did you notice that Dom's II AI is far less prone to fall to gem draining tactics? I find myself saving a lot of gems when I catch scouts around.

[ February 22, 2004, 20:51: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Aikamun]

Saw the same success of a Vanheim prophet in the Arena. He won two tournaments, taking out at least two pretenders. Used the same strategy you mentioned with phantasmal warriors and the fatigue they caused. Finally succumbed to the Great Mother, in his third tournament, due to routing from his own spell-casting fatigue.

Aikamun

[PDF]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Then you should rename the thread PDF, because your example proves nothing.

This was a mistake of the strategic AI sending to the arena a mage that knew no combat spells (ie, had a little thau research, but no evo or alt research). Mages default to cast, if the mage just knows crap he will cast crap regardless of how good or bad the spell AI be.

Despite the nay-sayers, the spell AI is one of the best parts of the game. You want some proof? get the same mage, research evo1 & thau1 and send him to the arena...he will cast star fires instead of com master/slave. But you cannot plant melons & expect apples to grow.

Maybe the AI Marignon nation had few spells, but it was on turn 12-15 IIRC, he should have had some..
And anyway the guy should rather run, or attack with fists than casting CM+CS when he's alone !! That he only knows totally useless spells (in these conditions) isn't a reason to cast them...

[Arryn]

Originally posted by PDF:
And anyway the guy should rather run

IIRC, you cannot run when in the arena, which is where the pic was from.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PDF:
Maybe the AI Marignon nation had few spells, but it was on turn 12-15 IIRC, he should have had some..

It had researched at least conjuration 3 and thaumaturgy 1. I imagine it was going for conjuration 4 for summer lions, which is what Marignon tends to do as an AI.

And anyway the guy should rather run, or attack with fists than casting CM+CS when he's alone !! That he only knows totally useless spells (in these conditions) isn't a reason to cast them...

Do you really want your mages to run into a melee on the battlefield when they decide that they don't have a useful spell to cast?

[Taqwus]

Graeme --
In this case, the choice was between casting useless spells or melee, because in the arena it's victory or death (unless, perhaps, you can Return out. Hm, if it's a one-round tournament, can you summon Lammashastas and return out, and still win? Hmmm.) If he has no useful spells, the choice became melee or die.
Casting useless spells also drives up fatigue, which could be bad if there's an opportunity to cast an especially draining spell later, or if melee is a risk, or if communion is an issue -- useless spellcasting is good for butchering one's own communicants, for instance.

[PDF]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by PDF:
And anyway the guy should rather run

IIRC, you cannot run when in the arena, which is where the pic was from.

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He should try to run in circles, to exhaust his opponent ! ... I recall Chaplin doing that on a boxing ring, against a big badass , in a movie (don't recall which ..)