On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat - Page 2

Taqwus · #11 March 29th, 2004, 05:35 PM

Huzurdaddi --
Caelian ice weapons do, in fact, count as magic.

So there's your flying, magic-wielding opposition right there...

Pat Wilcox · #12 March 29th, 2004, 07:44 PM

Does anybody use those immobile pretenders? In one of my first demo games I used the Glyph. I didn't realize at the time that there's a very good reason why it was zero points. All you can do with them in the opening few turns is research, right?

PatWx

Peter Ebbesen · #13 March 29th, 2004, 07:49 PM

Immobile pretenders certainly have their uses. The are typically cheap and have high starting paths and dominion while having low path costs, which means you can get either stronger ritual magic, better blessings, or better scales. Best for longer games, though, where their magic and dominion can really shine.

Don't choose the Sphinx, however. It has no redeeming abilities whatsoever as it is inferior to the Sacred Statue, the Monolith, and even the Oracle - but costs more.

Huzurdaddi · #14 March 29th, 2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Caelian ice weapons do, in fact, count as magic. So there's your flying, magic-wielding opposition right there...

That's actually exactly what I was talking about! I was shocked when they crushed my pretender in about 2 rounds of combat.

So taking her is a little of a crap shoot (with good odds!). Against almost anyone she rules in the early game, but she has problems against Caelian.

Quote:

Natarajas are a better choice for Arco

A lot of people seem to like the Natarajas. However for early expansion I don't think it's a very good choice. He needs a lot of weapons to get going. That's like 20 water to make 4 swords. That's a good while to wait for most nations, and he's pretty gosh darn vulnerable without those items.

Quote:

The Vanheim Allfather is another good one: Mounted, so armor encumberance can be ignored, a low base encumberance value of 2, which drops to 1 with experience (and is unaffected by armor), and built-in Glamour/Mirror Image and flying.

Yup he looks pretty good. However he looks weak to me compared to the vamp queen. He costs more, yet it sure looks to me that he will have a hard time taking high strength independents. I guess I SHOULD try him before flapping my mouth off.

So let's hear some more early game (and if you wish late game) SC's. Let's see if anyone can de-throne the vampire queen!

I'll put in a vote for the Son of Niefel. He's cheap, he's big, he's tough. With boots of boots of Behemoth he's super, sadly that's not going to happen for some time since Jotunhiem does not have access to earth gems ... pitty. So while I think he has potential he is not going to be beating any strength 6+ independents by himself for a little while.

[ March 29, 2004, 18:17: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

fahdiz · #15 March 29th, 2004, 08:32 PM

The Vampire Queen really does rock...

...but I also want to put in my vote again for a Wyrm with Astral, researched up to at least Astral Shield (but Body Ethereal doesn't hurt either) with a Pendant of Luck and a couple of nice helmets. He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

Norfleet · #16 March 29th, 2004, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fahdiz:
He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it.

fahdiz · #17 March 29th, 2004, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:
Originally posted by fahdiz:
He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it.

Bah. Of course you're right, Norfleet. Mea culpa. I just take Water 2 on my VQs so frequently that I forgot she wasn't amphibious.

I always try to take the Icthyid (sp?) water provinces before tackling the Tritons, too. VQs with Quickness and Breath of Winter can be really, really devastating solo combatants.

AhhhFresh · #18 March 29th, 2004, 11:23 PM

VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

fahdiz · #19 March 30th, 2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

Quote:

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

Quote:

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

Quote:

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it. [/qb]

Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake.

I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces.

[ March 29, 2004, 22:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

AhhhFresh · #20 March 30th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fahdiz:

quote:
Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

Quote:

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

Quote:

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

Quote:

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake.

I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces. [/QB]

Yeah, Black Steel Plate would do the trick... but who else besides Ulm has that as option in the early going?

Don't get me wrong, she's fantastically powerful... especially early. But she has two glaring weaknesses: she's undead (spells and weapons made specifically to f-up her day), and she's fragile (relative to other SCs).

With a suit of armor and against indies inside your own dominion, this is not a problem... but if your expansion can't exceed your own dominion spread, how much advantage are you really getting over other SC pretenders?

It really doesn't take long for a Void Lord or Nataraja to get up and running... and they can fight effectively in other dominions... so they can pretty quickly catch up to whatever gains you might have made due to the VQ in the first 5 turns.

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

Of course he's R'lyeh only, so that pretty much invalidates my point about the Black Steel plate being Ulm only... but, whaddya want; I'm a hypocrite.