OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by calmon

...I gave it up to find a really good AI for pro-strategy players on turnbased games...

Please let us know if you find one

It was actually during a long, and mostly fruitless hunt for a good TBS game three years ago that I managed to find Dominions 3. Maybe there's something else lurking out there waiting to be discovered?!!? Although I did go through a lot of time and money before managing to find Dominions 3. I shudder when I think of some of the stuff I bought. So I can't say I'm hopeful of there being lots of undiscovered gems out there.

[vladikus]

It's real time strategy so I may be digressing, but Empire Earth had some awfully challenging AI. Although, it was probably too hard.

[analytic_kernel]

I have to agree with those who are recommending computer chess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. As Agema has mentioned, games with simpler sets of rules can generally get deeper-thinking AIs programmed for them.

I've actually had some experience at working on improving AIs for open source TBS games. In one case it was for an existing TBS game engine that could run different kinds of games, depending on the game definition files you fed to it. I was younger then: more ambitious and less reflective. As I got further and further into that project, the full enormity of the task became apparent. It is truly a non-trivial undertaking to make an AI that plays well in a variety of circumstances when a lot of variables are in play.

I also started to develop a Python AI for Wesnoth about a year-and-a-half ago, but became frustrated by the limitations of the sandbox environment they had set up (for security reasons). Someone else actually had put together a Python AI that was a decent tactician, but it was computationally expensive and there was no "strategic level" thinking. I took some of his ideas and worked on one that performed some strategic analysis and kept coherent goals across multiple turns. It was doable, but I don't think it was a huge improvement, because there are so many situations where one kind of strategic analysis doesn't work well. (Closeness of starting positions, victory conditions, etc... can all force significantly different approaches to the game.)

So, I think you can sink a lot of thought and a lot of code into making a good AI, but after a certain point there are diminishing returns. "Use cases" that someone cares about do slip through the cracks. My guess is that professional game development shops realize this, determine a threshold that they deem good enough, and then don't expend much effort beyond that point.

As mentioned in an earlier post, humans are generally more challenging intelligences to play against. If I could go back in time and change some of my participation in the TBS engine project, I would not have touched the AI and would have instead focused my efforts on getting the networking code back in good shape. Working multiplayer functionality trumps having a decent AI, in my opinion. (Of course, if you have both, then more power to you.)

[Trumanator]

Well, if you're looking beyond TBS then you could try WC3. It managed to stomp me and 2 of my buddies at just the average setting. We do suck pretty bad though, so who knows...

[Raiel]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Don't do it. It's a trap! One which I've fallen for many times in my attempts to force myself to like GalCiv II. I've easily spent over 200 hours on the game, and can't say I've enjoyed any of them if I'm honest.

I've come to the conclusion that you either like the game or you don't, and you either find the AI to be good or you don't (I find even the highest level to be very easy to beat personally). And this usually happens within the first few games you play. As at least in my experience, no amount of extra games or time (or money foolishly thrown at expansion packs) will ever change your impression after those initial games (ie. once you start winning all the time).

One of my biggest 'gaming' regrets in recent years is the amount of hours I've 'wasted' on Gal Civ II. And I'm not someone who considers 'gaming' to be a waste of time in any respect (like some people do). But it is a waste trying to like a game just because it is considered good by so many people. Even if it's a game you know in theory you should like, because you mostly always like all 'those type of games' (this latter point was always the bait that made me fall for the Gal Civ II trap repeatedly).


Not sure if I know of any good AI's for any strategy games. Although I find the CivIV AI to be better than most. At least I know I can't always beat the top AI level every time. Although that's almost entirely due to the bonuses it gets, so not really correct to say it's a 'good' AI I suppose.

I really could not have said it better myself. The only difference for me was that I was done with it after a few dozen hours. If I could thank you twice for that post, I would.

Sombre: I think you do spreadsheets everywhere a disservice.

[DakaSha]

one of the first things i noticed about the AI in galciv (and im noticing again now) is how it thinks it has to colonize planets deep in my sphere of influence...

thanks for the free planet

again... the AI might be the best in the world of semi-complex TBS AI's but why does it have to do something that moronic?


and yeah games with more simple rules are def better AI-wise.. im sure thats why galciv is actually so simple under all that make up....

im pretty decent with GML in game maker so ive been letting game concepts swirl around my head... Im trying to get a strategy game system down that includes all of the "cool" things like espionage, technology and my personal fav supply lines but is done in a simple enough fashion to allow the creation of a decent AI. An AI that can plan on simple mathematical facts (like chess) while allowing some deeper strategy (like uhm...well other TBS games)

of course ill prob just start coding and stop after a month but i can at least dream :P

[chrispedersen]

I would say battlebots has the best AI i've seen.. at least the most challenging to beat.

[Foodstamp]

Even AI chess can be pretty poor. For instance, Chess Titans will swap equal value pieces with you no matter if you are a piece up on the AI. This scenario plays out every single time unless AI has a move that forces you to lose a piece without the AI losing one.

So basically you can beat Chess Titans every single time if you get one piece up, just by swapping pieces the rest of the game and once your down to nothing you are the only player with a power piece left, putting you in a great position to win the game.

I am sure other Chess AIs are probably better (I mean they have chess programs that beat champions), but I figured the AI was pretty standard for the types of chess games most of us are playing.

[TheDemon]

It seems to be a constant problem with AI in complex TBS games that they never have an overall strategic plan that ends in winning the game. I can't say I've seen any really competent AIs, but Civ 4 Beyond the Sword on the higher difficulty levels can be challenging and the AIs will eventually focus on a certain type of win (often its spaceship though, which they're not that good at, but I've seen AIs going for cultural wins I've lost a fair share of games because the AI beat me militarilly). Admittedly it gives the AIs a rather massive handicap on the difficulties that are challenging.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by DakaSha

Dominions 3 is of course the hands down best strategy game ever created but the ai is also hands down brain dead...

During the years I've made several attempts to address several of the major AI issues in Dominions, but rarely any luck.

Originally Posted by DakaSha

Does anybody know of a good strategy game with some good AI that i havnt heard of? I doubt it as i think ive played them all :P but one can never know...

Unfortunately most developers place small amounts of value on the AI... or sometimes even less. First, the AI developing is one of the most complex features in a game. Second, most developers are only interested in being on the team which improves graphics or designs the user interface because during a future job interview it's easier to display what visuals you've provided as compared with what AI strategies you've developed. So unfortunately anything AI usually gets the short end of the developers time stick.

Originally Posted by DakaSha

... ... ai is just not as good as its made out to be.. ive seen it do the most retarded stuff...

anything else??

There is some hope coming in a future TBS game called Elemental:War of Magic, where the AI can be modded by the gaming community. So even if the original game has the usual unsatisfactory AI... with time it will gradually be improved by the community.
I'm on the beta testing team for Elemental:War of Magic... so I'll be working towards making sure the game basics are stable. While I'm very pleased with the work from Illwinter, I was disappointed with the beta testers of Dominions_3.