Gotta AI problem here and I could use some help

[Mobhack]

Rally points will direct the initial retreat towards them (if close enough, otherwise the map edge wins as far as I recollect). But then they will go for the left or right map edge as determined by the scenario side.

In addition the initial retreat from a burst of fire is almost always towards the appropriate map side for the player - so in a top-down scenario you can have infantry retreat from fire across the line of contact, so picking up additional shots at it.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

... so in a top-down scenario you can have infantry retreat from fire across the line of contact, so picking up additional shots at it.

Had that happen more times then I care to remember ... makes "you're surrounded" scenarios interesting.

I keep forgetting and trying again and again ... must be an age thing ... or sheer stupidity ...

[SaS TrooP]

@Grand1pa - where I can find that Venhola program? Thay may come in handy. This is bloody 200x160 map painted clear from sat images. I WILL have a butthurt if this scenario won't work the way I want. And I want to fix it.

Now, my problem is NOT the way they retreat. Problem is they choose sorta "retarded" paths, going over and around. If you do not mind spoilers, I can show you the WIP version. When you watch the first turn, you will see that AI units are just going randomly to the left and then they eventually MAY turn, only to capture the flag nearby. I will try to move some flags around, may that's what messed up (but usually works in left/right orientation).

This is typical scenario of mine, so brigade sized engagement - not that I'm lazy but you can guess I would do my best to avoid waypointing about 450 units.

[Grant1pa]

Sorry Mate, I was at work.

http://www.venhola.com/maps/geo.html

Check the sticky in the scenario forum: MAPS/HEIGHT MAPS for a lengthy discussion.

You're going to come to love the program.

Best,

Tom

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Had that happen more times then I care to remember ... makes "you're surrounded" scenarios interesting.

I keep forgetting and trying again and again ... must be an age thing ... or sheer stupidity ...

Been a while since I have used it but from memory works pretty well though only set for part of the force not the whole side.
Airdrop or similar normaly set about 3/4 the way along enemies map edge.

[Grant1pa]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

Now, my problem is NOT the way they retreat. Problem is they choose sorta "retarded" paths, going over and around. If you do not mind spoilers, I can show you the WIP version. When you watch the first turn, you will see that AI units are just going randomly to the left and then they eventually MAY turn, only to capture the flag nearby. I will try to move some flags around, may that's what messed up (but usually works in left/right orientation).

This is typical scenario of mine, so brigade sized engagement - not that I'm lazy but you can guess I would do my best to avoid waypointing about 450 units.

I'm not sure if this will help, but I will often deploy only my forward elements on the initial turn, leaving follow-on elements to a reinforcement turn. I think I may have already said that I use waypoint movement for most of my attacking forces. Most of the time I do this for reinforcement turn elements, and sometimes I merely place them forward in the map (not on the side edge) towards an objective flag where I let them move independently. This usually has to be adjusted in play-testing to see how far my lead elements get to make sure my intended objectives are still not seized. It's an imperfect system.

Without waypoints, your OPFOR will often execute tactically unsound movement (I presume the path of least resistance). So if your terrain favors the defense, you're stuck with waypoints for survivability. So I use the "place and hope for the best" method sparingly.

It works for me most of the time when I design large scale battles (which is most of what I do). This may eliminate some of the tedious nature of assigning way points for your second echelon in large scale engagements.

I have no objection to you posting your Work In Progress and would surely look at it.

Best.

Tom

[DRG]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

@Grand1pa - where I can find that Venhola program?

once you have the link set in your browser ( I have it on my favorites bar and can call it up anytime )

enter

50.0575
19.9802

and you will centre right in the middle of Krakow

It will make a 999 map for you but after you load it in the game you MUST flood fill it with page 2 clear terrain to see the contours... Page 2 upper left button. When it first load it will appear flat but look at the mini map. The is a detailed discussion and a link to the guide in the sticky section above this

Don

HERE IS THE GUIDE FOR THE PROGRAM

SPMBT-maps user manual

SPMBT-maps is a tool to help you create good WinSPMBT maps.

Choosing a location

The map tool generates you a 160x200 hex map approximately 8000 meters wide and 8660 meters high containing the height information as provided by Google API. The resolution of Google API is in general 152 meters: i.e. terrain features that are finer than 3 hexes wide may get lost and must be filled in by hand where appropriate. However, that is the lowest resolution and in some cases the overall result is better than this promise.

When you have a good candidate location you can use the WWW map service that contains cached OpenStreetMap tiles to see how that map would be produced. You can either go straight to the map interface defaulting in Helsinki, Finland suburbs or you can enter your coordinates and map rotation. The map location and rotation may be easily adjusted later in the UI tool. Coordinates must be entered in WGS84 decimal format, so S20.1 W8.05 is entered by typing in -20.1 and -8.05 respectively. Rotation is in degrees.

In the tool you can then do adjustments (some of them are hidden when they would have no effect)

Move map: Drag (with mouse) by holding the left button
Rotate map: Shift + Alt + drag (holding left button of your mouse)
Zoom in: Double click / ⊞ button / mouse wheel scroll up
Zoom out: ⊟ button / mouse wheel scroll down
Redraw hex grid to current map center on screen according to map rotation: ✛ button
Rotate map to geographical north: ⇧ button
Rotate map to hex grid west-east axis: ⟂ button
Download current hex grid area: ⇩ button
Get link to the map (for bookmarking, linking outside...): L button
When you zoom in long enough you start to see individual hexes and some of them will contain their hex grid coordinates to help you fill the map.

Working on the map

Getting the terrain

After picking a good location so that all areas of interests are covered by the map click the Download button. Generating the map will take about half a minute but you can continue to use the UI while waiting. When the source map is generated it should be copied to game directory tiled "Maps". It will be map number 999 and will be overwritten by autosave if you work with any other map in the WinSPMBT map editor.

After opening the map go to second page of tools (either by clicking the blue triangle or "n" key on your keyboard) and choose clear keeping the current contour. Do not click on any hex but choose then Fill range button and enter 255 in. Then press the fill button and the terrain should be finished.

Starting the hard work

After getting a fresh terrain map I usually start by drawing in the major roads. Zoom in the map enough to see the main roads and their hexes with numbers such as (4,0) in them. These correspond to the coordinates in your map editor. After roads are in the other terrain features are easier to place. Other sources of information such as Google Earth and maps containing terrain information (rough / impassable areas, grass, woods etc) may be helpful. OpenStreetMap might not contain accurate information everywhere. Using two monitors is a major helper when making these maps.

Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you can't replicate the features on the map you see with WinSPMBT map editor. Especially intersections, bridges or built areas might provide hard to fill in. In these cases I have aimed to the closest look and feel gamewise and tended to be more creative especially if the area in question is not an essential one considering the location. So roads that squirm on the map edge may be replaced with woods where they would show up on the map.

[SaS TrooP]

This tool looks lovely! And is quick and easy to use, I believe I may try it in future scenarios. Sadly, this does not solve my problem with this scenario I'm having.

I tested Pyros' guide on tank battalion. Tanks are doing well, his system probably works well. It seems nothing is left for me than to apply it to the rest of the 450 units brigade.
I should be done by around 2025. DO you still plan to update the game by then?

One more question though: I got some units coming in as reinforcements. I read the guide on waypoints, but something worries me. My waypoint "line" is not going from unit which will appear on map, but its going from very top-left corner of the map (from grey area). Should I be worried? I would like to know that before I put 120 waypoints for this unit.

[Mobhack]

If your unit is off map then it is at -1,-1 and likely that waypoints will plot from there. It might be different if you have placed it on a reinforcement hex and given it an arrival turn, but as I never use waypoints in scenarios, I dont know the details.

[Grant1pa]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

One more question though: I got some units coming in as reinforcements. I read the guide on waypoints, but something worries me. My waypoint "line" is not going from unit which will appear on map, but its going from very top-left corner of the map (from grey area). Should I be worried? I would like to know that before I put 120 waypoints for this unit.

I had this happen to me numerous times and with help from board members figured it out. Non-APC units should not do this. Check for that. If the units that start their first waypoint go up/left most, they are probably a command leg unit (first squad of a company/platoon). Simply place the loaded APC where you want it, then unload it. Go to the command screen and set your waypoints and they should work. When all waypoints are completed, go back and load the units to their APC. I've also seen this with air defense leg units in an APC platoon/coy. If you get the way off first waypoint, go and unload them and simply follow the same procedure.

This may not be according to the manual, but it works for me.

If you don't correct it, I think the unit will move to the first waypoint (off map) before on map waypoints. Not my area, but I know I had units rolling past the course I set them.

Best,

Tom