MOD: Pangaea standard theme wth. usable Satyrs

[Arralen]

My mod is aimed at re-balancing the units already available - I don't want to take some out, change pics or even add some more. (Keep it simple, stupid )

Maenad
onomastikon:
I also liked the way you toned down some of the Manead's stats, but not her morale. I sort of missed her as a crazy careless freak. ... and the maneads could retain just a bit more of what they were.

Actually, I tried to make them even crazier freaks: gave them berserk-3 instead of berserk-1. Turned down the other values to prevent them getting too strong. Thought they should be realitvly easy to turn away when no beserking, so I cut down moral even more.

Didn't work out like intended. Looks like they have to pass a morale check to go berserk .. what they'll never do with such low morale. So I'll changed morale back to it's original value in the next Version.


Satyrs
Zen:
I like having the 2 Prot, but since Pangaea gets easy access to Protection/Mass Protection it doesn't really reflect anything but the initial turns.
Perhaps you can give the basic Satyrs "Furs" for armor. Thus making them slightly more competetive for some sort of use late in the game.

Actually, I have given the shielded variant Furs already, check it out.
Wasn't shure if the Satyrs wouldn't be too strong if I gave furs to all of them, or which costs to choose - Furs are somewhere in between leather cuirass (3/0/0), leather hauberk (4/0/0) and full leath. armor (6/-1/1)

Thinking 'bout it .. giving them furs would make the Pangaean province defense at least somewhat useful. (see "Centaur Commander")

Japser:
Basic Satyrs:
8 gold cost and staffs makes them alot better. I like the natural protection 2. The javelin throwing ones might be too good for 8 gold. Perhaps lower their precision?

They'll be back to 10gp in the next Version.

Jasper:
Satyr Veterans:
They need better morale. I'd actually just take them out, and let a veteran satyr be one with one star.

They'll change their name to "Champions" in next Version. Moral will be 10.
I'm not shure if I let them go with the hide shield or if I should give them a round shield - pic would fit both, but the later would raise their encumbrance to 6 - quite much for light infantry.

Japser:
Satyr Hoplites:
Should have round shields.

Sadly, this wouldn't fit with the pic ...


Satyr Revlers
onomastikon:
Also sort of missed the Reveler; I find your idea really good with the banner, but I don't feel that he should keep his beserk ability as well (a banner leader should be a cool-headed mini-commander IMHO).

Those revelers aren't commanders, they are champions. They lead not by issuing orders or even by cheering the troops into the fight, but by giving an example of battle prowess when fighting in the front lines.
I gave them minimal berserk ability (1), as I feel that fits the description much better. After all, they enjoy fighting AND living ... .


Zen:
Leave the Standard and keep them a Reveler.
Also instead of the Thorn Staff, maybe you could change it to the Thorn Spear.
Thorn Spear = Damage 5, Att 2, Def 2, Length 4
This makes it slightly less powerful (-1 Att, -2 Def).

It would be -3 Def,actually. I really don't want to go too low with def, as survivability is low enough already

Japser:
Way too good with Thorn Staffs .. I like the standard effect, though I'm not sure about trading Berserk for Skill.
What about taking the Original Revelers, and adding standard +10, a snake staff, and javelins? ..
You need the javelins, otherwise you won't mix them with Javelin Satyrs. Ctis' snake staff retains the flavor you were after, but don't come with +2 attack/defense; just refer to them as thorn staffs in the description.

I'm really not shure which equipment to use. Giving them too much berserk makes them die to quickly. With standard spears they don't do that much damage, and defense is too low to be viable, too.
And the quarterstaff is def+3 already, why give them something worse? I don't think they need javelins, as javelin throwers aren't primary front line fighters, so they don't _have_ to mix with them.

Maybe I settle for Snake Staff(318).

Here's the equipment I consider:

code:

---

                 D  A  D  E

                 a  t  e  n

                 m  t  f  c



Spear        (1) 3/ 0/ 0/ 4  1h

Stick      (153) 2/ 0/ 1/ 1  1h



Quarterstaff (7) 3/ 1/ 3/ 4  2h



Thorn Spear      5/ 2/ 2/ 4  1h

Thorn Staff (81) 5/ 3/ 5/ 4  2h, weak poison, magic



Snake Staff(318) 3/ 1/ 3/ 4  1h?, weak poison, magic

Snake Staff (89) 5/ 3/ 5/ 4  2h?, weak poison, magic





                     P  D  E

                     r  e  n

                     o  f  c



Furs           (44)  4/-1/ 1

Leather Cuirass (5)  3/ 0/ 0

Leather Hauberk(10)  4/ 0/ 0

Full Leath Arm.(15)  6/-1/ 1

Ring Mail Haub.(11)  7/-1/ 1

Skull Necklace(113) 10/ 0/ 0



Buckler         (1)  2/ 1/ 0

Round Shield    (2)  3/ 2/ 1

Hide Shield   (105)  2/ 2/ 1

Leather Shield (70)  2/ 2/ 0  the one you can forge

---

Centaurs
Japser:
Bugfixing their natural protection to 3 is good. I don't think the standard on the Centaur Commander fits however.

It will be gone with the militia donning furs ...
Added it to give the province defense a little bit more staying power.


Minotaur
Zen:
You might also swap out the Bronze__Curiass on the War Minotaur to a Bronze Hauberk. Thus effectively making a Berserking Minotaur 20 Prot. Then there might be a reason to build them instead of Centaur Warriors.


Won't do too much good - encumbrance will go up to 7, and they can do several trampling attacks per turn - thus making them pass out very soon.


Dryad/Hierophant
Japser:
The change you commented out of your mod is interesting, and would improve Pangaea quite a bit. I'd raise the dryads costs to 90 though.

Modding guidelines say:
Priests
Lvl 2: +20
Lvl 3: +50

.. I'll stick to this for now - who am I to disagree with the developers
'Wasn't able to make it work anyhow


Ok, hope I'll have everything covered now.

See you with v0.3

A.

[ February 09, 2004, 21:12: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Arralen]

v0.3 available

This time with readme included.



have fun !

A.

[ April 09, 2004, 21:22: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Arralen]

You'll never stop learning new things when playing dominions ..

.. this time it's about Maenads,the berserking ability and repell:

- unit goes berserk when hit and it passes a moral test. So if you want a unit to go berserk reliably , you'll have to crank up it's moral really high

- repell doesn't trigger special weapon damage as poison etc., but it does trigger berserking !


So when I tried to make Maenads even crazier freaks by upping their berserk ability from 1 to 3, and at the same time make them easier to scare away un-berserked by setting moral to 8, I in fact made it next to impossible for them to freak out.

Now morale is back to 16 (IIRC), and they go berserk when repelled by spears often enough.

Just a few notes. The Heirophant makes things much easier. Research is also cheaper considerably.

I think the standard should be lowered to +8.

The standard effect doesn't work too well on the low morale satyrs. You might consider a slight increase in cost and an addition +1 morale.

You should pull out the Centaur Cataphract, it doesn't fit the Pangaean base theme.

The maeneds don't seem much affected from how they were previously played (I.E. Fodder that doesn't really do much). Perhaps you should give them an additional claw attack at Ambidexterity 1 (or 2). This wouldn't increase their survival, but it would increase their ability to actually kill something or at least lower the defense enough to kill it if enough attack.

I am still on the fence as far as the Reveler is concerned. I like the fact that he is able to do poison damage, but I feel he's just not 'right'.

One note though. I still would/will not build Minotaurs. A much better buy is Centaur Warriors (or normal Centaurs, if you want to waste gold). With the now solid hoplite it's hard to find a place for the minotaur (not that they had one before).

[Jasper]

It looks pretty good, and IMHO would be a good replacement for the standard theme. I have only a couple minor caveats.

I'd give the Satyr hoplites 13 hp. Not as much as their original 14, but they should have more than the basic satyr.

I know I originally suggested standard +10 for the revelers, but I had the scale off. I now see that Pythium standard bearers are +5, and Arcoscephale Strategos are +10. The Revelers should probably be +5.

I still think the dryads should cost 90 now, same as Theurg Acolytes -- which Dryads are clearly superior to. 80 gold + sacred would be the most efficient researcher native to any faction, which seems too much IMHO. 90 gold + sacred would at still be tied for most efficient.

Man has Daughter's of Avalon that are currently 80, Sacred and do so.

So if you bump them up to 90, they will be just a smidge higher, but probably fitting since they have 2 Holy.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:
The Heirophant makes things much easier. Research is also cheaper considerably.

I agree. These things alone greatly improve pangaea.

[quote]The standard effect doesn't work too well on the low morale satyrs. You might consider a slight increase in cost and an addition +1 morale.[quote]
I think they're about right now. The javeliners are good enough, andn the Champions already have morale 9.

You should pull out the Centaur Cataphract, it doesn't fit the Pangaean base theme.

I think the Cataphracts fit perfectly, every bit as much as the Hoplites.

The maeneds don't seem much affected from how they were previously played (I.E. Fodder that doesn't really do much). Perhaps you should give them an additional claw attack at Ambidexterity 1 (or 2). This wouldn't increase their survival, but it would increase their ability to actually kill something or at least lower the defense enough to kill it if enough attack.

They're probably a little better now. I don't think they should be effective or likely to survive. I've had very great success with them as they were.

I still would/will not build Minotaurs. A much better buy is Centaur Warriors (or normal Centaurs, if you want to waste gold). With the now solid hoplite it's hard to find a place for the minotaur (not that they had one before).

I agree that the War Minotaurs are still a bit suspect, mostly because they have Strategic move 1. I'd probably give them strategic move 2, much like Giants. They still wouldn't be that good, since Trample 3 doesn't do much damage.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Arralen:
Jasper:
Satyr Hoplites:
Should have round shields.
Sadly, this wouldn't fit with the pic ...

The Champions have Round Shields, and their shield is just as small...

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:
Man has Daughter's of Avalon that are currently 80, Sacred and do so.

So if you bump them up to 90, they will be just a smidge higher, but probably fitting since they have 2 Holy.

The Daughters are sacred? I'd missed that. They're capitol restricted however, so in practice you won't build enough to really make use of it, especially since you have to forego recruiting the *** kicking Crones.

I think they're about right now. The javeliners are good enough, andn the Champions already have morale 9.

Probably in the right squad size. I was only testing it with squad sizes of 20 with 2 Revelers. This is in general enough for most things to not break. It just might be that the Satyrs take too much damage and die to be really helped by a standard at all.

I think the Cataphracts fit perfectly, every bit as much as the Hoplites.

Must just be a me thing I prefer to think of Centaurs not in the Shadowbane mentality

They're probably a little better now. I don't think they should be effective or likely to survive. I've had very great success with them as they were.

Oh yes, they are successful in what they do. It's not hard to fodder Or overwhelm the opponent. I was just thinking in the terms of changing them that would actually have an impact. Either way right now they are pretty much the same. Prot 3 vs Prot 1 isn't that big of a deal. And Str +3 (9) vs Str +1 (10) is only 2 points which I admit is an improvement, but I could see the fact that they lower defense and cause more morale checks to be more in line of what I think "Wild women" would do. As opposed to domestic violent women with frying pans

I agree that the War Minotaurs are still a bit suspect, mostly because they have Strategic move 1. I'd probably give them strategic move 2, much like Giants. They still wouldn't be that good, since Trample 3 doesn't do much damage.

Maybe the Minotaurs should be taken out of the Base Pangaean theme entirely, regulated to New Era then boosted to fit that themes needs.