What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY! - Page 2

MythicalMino · #11 September 21st, 2003, 09:36 PM

but we are talking about a game of world-wide holy war....if every nation in the world (real-life world) was so invested in a particular religion (ex, every nation in the world an opposing nature of Muslim and Jewish), you would not see them joining forces in any way....both religions are so excluding of other religions (like the religions of Dominions), that they don't allow (true and trustful) alliances with one another.

Even within their own religious nations, there is constant war....the Shiites vs. the Sunni, Turkey (I believe) vs. the Kurds....in the Old Testament of the Bible, the two Kingdoms of Jews vs. each other....

That is why I can believe in the Dominions world with no true Diplomacy....

Now, I understand you will not agree with me....but this is what my thoughts on it are....i love diplomacy (working models in a games vs. the AI), but in Dominions, it just makes sense to me that there is none...

Mortifer · #12 September 21st, 2003, 10:31 PM

Well, Holy War or not, you guys dont get the point.
Just because the concept of the game is about a war, there should be dimplomacy. Gods, warlords, emperors, who cares?!
Diplomacy does make a lot of sense in all strategy/war games, regardless of the concept. Since we have territories to conquer here, diplomacy could be a nice addition.......
I am sure that lot players would agree with me.

MythicalMino · #13 September 21st, 2003, 10:37 PM

but why change the concept? that is my point...I think illwinter has done a superb job in making this game....diplomacy or not....sure, it would be nice if there was diplomacy in the game....but I don't think it has to have it to be successful....that is my point....and, the no-diplomacy "fits" in the game....that is why I think it still works....

a game of civ3 should have it...but not dominions doesn't need it....

who knows...perhaps if illwinter makes more money with this one, they can add some diplomacy in the next installment, if they decide that they want it....but...again, this game works without it....and it makes sense with the concept...

you say "holy war or not, the game needs diplomacy", i disagree...it is a game of holy war....therefore, the game doesn't need diplomacy....

And I really would hate illwinter to change the "concept" just to put in a diplomacy model....I really like the religious theme in the game....

Kristoffer O · #14 September 22nd, 2003, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cpbeller:
but why change the concept? that is my point...I think illwinter has done a superb job in making this game....diplomacy or not....sure, it would be nice if there was diplomacy in the game....but I don't think it has to have it to be successful....that is my point....and, the no-diplomacy "fits" in the game....that is why I think it still works....

a game of civ3 should have it...but not dominions doesn't need it....

who knows...perhaps if illwinter makes more money with this one, they can add some diplomacy in the next installment, if they decide that they want it....but...again, this game works without it....and it makes sense with the concept...

you say "holy war or not, the game needs diplomacy", i disagree...it is a game of holy war....therefore, the game doesn't need diplomacy....

And I really would hate illwinter to change the "concept" just to put in a diplomacy model....I really like the religious theme in the game....

The concept will not change, but the concept doesn't exclude diplomacy. You have it in multiplayer. If I may indulge myself:

Most religions are peaceful and do not indulge in holy wars. However if the faith is threatened they might react (the followers at least). Just as if someone attacked your house.

Religion has been used to legitimate hostilities, but is rarely the underlying reason of a war. Greed, megalomania and fear of your neighbor are.

In a fantasy world the God is not as aloof as gods of this world. Perhaps the point of faith is lost when you can actually see your god, but fear or loyalty in a manifest god should be enough to gather armies intent on conquering the lands of heathens if this was the outspoken will of said god.

In general, diplomacy is a means to an end. You could argue, as M. does, that Gods should use it as well as humans. I agree. In multiplayer this is often the case. Dominions was designed as a MP game and this is the main reason there is no SP diplomacy. I have never played civ 3, nor any SP game of diplomacy for that matter in a very long time. The most recent one that I can remember is MOO2 and I was not very impressed.

In Dominions there is peace until war breaks out. Eventually hostilities cease. You can not know if your enemy is at peace with you, but this is as it should be. If your enemy said that you were friends it would take some time for you to trust him. No removed 'war' tag on his forehead so to speak.

We have given diplomacy some short thoughts, but felt that other matters were more interesting. If we come up with some good solutions we might add it in a later patch, but as I said, we have no real experience of how a good diplomacy game should work.

I prefer the simple and uncertain war/truce/peace situation of Dominions to a stupid diplomatic AI that you can fool or abuse. If there is diplomacy you must feel that it is a person you negotiate with. Otherwise it gets annoying and the game gets boring pretty quickly.

Mortifer · #15 September 22nd, 2003, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Dominions was designed as a MP game and this is the main reason there is no SP diplomacy. .

Oh? This is new..I thought that this is a singleplayer game mainly....

Quote:

but as I said, we have no real experience of how a good diplomacy game should work. .

Well its never late to figure it out.

Quote:

I prefer the simple and uncertain war/truce/peace situation of Dominions to a stupid diplomatic AI that you can fool or abuse. If there is diplomacy you must feel that it is a person you negotiate with. Otherwise it gets annoying and the game gets boring pretty quickly.

Well if the diplo AI is stupid...you are right.
There are games with awesome dimplo AI...that you cannot abuse. If you cannot abuse it, its hella fun in any games...

Dont get me wrong guys, I can live without diplomacy, BUT my point is, that IF Dom II. would have a good singleplayer dimplo AI, that would ADD A LOT TO THE GAMEPLAY! That is my only point..

[ September 21, 2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

LordArioch · #16 September 22nd, 2003, 01:43 AM

I find that far too often a really bad diplomatic AI makes things worse than they were before. (AoW anyone?) And the time that it would take to make a good enough diplomatic AI for dominions...which would be hard I'd imagine...would detract from other aspects.

I just have bad images of invading my allies undefended border. Plus the whole uncertainty thing works well...the computer is your "friend" only so long as it does not benefit him to invade you, just like any human player.

And it is certainly MP intended...thats why theres simultaneous PBEM possible.

[ September 22, 2003, 00:44: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Mortifer · #17 September 22nd, 2003, 09:56 AM

Eh lol, than what is that sentence on Shrapnels site? "1) The strongest AI we have EVER seen!"

If the AI is really that good, they can make a decent diplo AI as well, I guess.

Anyways I understand your points, still I say that a good diplo system adds a lot to any games.
If the diplo AI is really good, you cannot abuse it.

[ September 22, 2003, 08:56: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Nerfix · #18 September 22nd, 2003, 03:00 PM

*sigh*
Have you actualy played Dominions I?
It's peace until either you or AI attacks, and there will eventualy be a "peace". Why is it so hard to understand that its a conceptual thing?

Mortifer · #19 September 22nd, 2003, 03:39 PM

Yes I played with it....I understand all things about the game concept, it is you who dont get my point. You say you cannot make truces or alliances even in Holy War? The best example is the Crusades. Those nations who were involved in it, lived in peace before and after it. Its all about diplomacy.
So if you ask me Dominion is more like a strategical deathmatch.

I think a strategy game with a diplo system is lot better, than a 'go and conquer' game...
I like the idea that you can set up alliances in the editor at least.

Nerfix · #20 September 22nd, 2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nerfix:
It's peace until either you or AI attacks, and there will eventualy be a "peace".

Does this sound like Crusade? Just insert the religious propaganda and bragging, and you have a Crusade.