The next patch - Page 20

Graeme Dice · #**191** April 10th, 2004, 05:51 PM

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I think this is far from demonstrated. Although water could use some new tricks, "the only effective thing" is a vast overstatement.

I don't think it's an overstatement at all. I think it's very clear that in the long term, nothing will pay off as much as building clams. You have a limited set of three water queens that can summon their own troops, and the rest of the uses for large numbers of water gems only have effects for a few turns.

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Oh, you had Water Queens and Abominations in that battle?

Only one of the water queens is amphibious, and abominations are astral summons, not water.

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They weren't mentioned in the previous post. Sea Trolls are far from "the toughest summons available" to ANY nation.

And that's part of the problem. Atlantis has no summonable or tough troops that can come onto land. The mother guard are nice, but its too expensive to haul around a lot of them.

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but they still have some better options than Sea Trolls.

On land? I suppose they could go for enliven statues, but those aren't particularly impressive either.

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I wouldn't consider a 10 gem item "very expensive" - certainly not compared to multiple-Wished VQs and their equipment.

The cost of astral pearls produced by clams is effectively 0 after 20 turns.

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Ice elementals, BTW, can damage cold immune creatures just fine (although they might have some problem with supercombatants).

Like a 250 hitpoint vampire queen with immunity to every element, a 0.004% chance of MR spells effecting it, and multiple damage shields you mean? I suppose one could try and use mandragoras, but their sleep vines aren't particularly likely take effect and the fire shield will make mincemeat of them.

[ April 10, 2004, 16:55: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

AhhhFresh · #**192** April 10th, 2004, 11:50 PM

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Like a 250 hitpoint vampire queen with immunity to every element, a 0.004% chance of MR spells effecting it, and multiple damage shields you mean? I suppose one could try and use mandragoras, but their sleep vines aren't particularly likely take effect and the fire shield will make mincemeat of them.

This is not something, I'm very familar with, as I have yet to get to the "uber-late" game mechanics in any of the MP games I am participating.

But my feeling is, that the only way to properly defeat an opponent's SC, is with your own SC... SC's are specifically designed to make mince meat of hordes of troops... summons or not.

The fact that she's undead, means there are weapons out there that do x3 AP damage to her... so you need somebody who can take and give a few hits, but it doesn't seem so hard to achieve...

But maybe I'm missing something?

Graeme Dice · #**193** April 11th, 2004, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
The fact that she's undead, means there are weapons out there that do x3 AP damage to her... so you need somebody who can take and give a few hits, but it doesn't seem so hard to achieve...

Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

AhhhFresh · #**194** April 11th, 2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:
Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
The fact that she's undead, means there are weapons out there that do x3 AP damage to her... so you need somebody who can take and give a few hits, but it doesn't seem so hard to achieve...

Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

Her stealth is +0... which is not very scary. Just set all your provinces in range to 10, and you at least know where she is... obviously, she'll obliterate said defenders, but if she can't hide, then she will be a victim to your SC.

That is just a matter of being the better player... and/or being lucky.

She wants to stay in positive dominion, and doesn't want to be confronted in general... so that makes her weak.

Yes, this is all theoretical... I'm not an MP badass. (Though I wish I was!)

Norfleet · #**195** April 11th, 2004, 01:23 AM

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

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Sun Tzu, "Art of War"
If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you.

AhhhFresh · #**196** April 11th, 2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

Quote:

Sun Tzu, "Art of War"
If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you.

On the OFFENSIVE I think that VQ's are as strong as strong can be. If you let them dictate how it'd gonna be, then you've already lost.

However, if you force them to react to you, then they're no more than expensive scouts... *ouch* that guy had a flambeau! C'est la vie.

Stormbinder · #**197** April 11th, 2004, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

quote:
Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

Quote:

Sun Tzu, "Art of War"
If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you.
On the OFFENSIVE I think that VQ's are as strong as strong can be. If you let them dictate how it'd gonna be, then you've already lost.

However, if you force them to react to you, then they're no more than expensive scouts... *ouch* that guy had a flambeau! C'est la vie.

Actually VQ is stronger on defense than on offense. That's because on defense she tend to fight in higher friendly dominion, and that makes her stronger (in addition to her immortality in friendly dominion of course). While on offense you more often than not press into hostile territory, especially if your opponent is aware what he is dealing with and has build temple/preaching priests everywhere along your borders.

I had a game where me and Truper come to virtual stalemate for about 20 turns, despite intense fighting and heavy casaulties. We both were using VQs and we both had to be very carefull about our armies and our pretenders, dominion-wise. I won the war eventually, but this was mostly because I managed to outmanerved my opponent and pushed my dominion deeper and deeper into his territory, as well as inflicting more losses on him than he did on me. The "attack with dominion" was performed though combination of temples, preachers, castles protecting most important temples, and my assasin prophet preaching and spreading dominion in most critical places deep behind enemy lines. Meanwhile it was mostly war of attrition, since any strong army than any of us could move forward could be easely wiped out by minimal forces lead by fully decked enemy VQ.

[ April 11, 2004, 07:39: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]