I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.
If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.
In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.
Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.
Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.
Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.
What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.
Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.
Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
Still food for thought I hope...
Last edited by IronDuke99; March 30th, 2016 at 12:41 AM..
To try to understand WWII you have to know that in 1939:
Hitler was in some respects not very bright, including his moronic hatred of Jewish people.
Italy and Japan, generally, sensibly, did not share Hitler's views on Jewish people.
In the 1930's the USA and the British Empire mainly saw themselves as trade rivals. The USA had a war plan against Canada and the British Empire that was updated into the 1930's.
Winston Churchill had an American mother he was very, very, fond of that gave his, always very emotional, view of the world a pro-American bias that most of us thinking British folks, thought/think was a little bit excessive...
Prior to 1939 Stalin in the USSR had killed vastly more civilians than Germany. By 1944/45 Roosevelt said he trusted Stalin more than Churchill and acted on it. We all know what that led to...
Had I been in Churchill's position when Hitler invaded Russia, I would not have risked one single British ship or sent Stalin as much as a second hand pair of British Army boots while British forces in the Far East (Malaya and Burma) lacked tanks and modern aircraft.
In the event the vast amount of British and American military aid sent to Russia that cost the western allies -mainly UK- dear in warships and merchant ships, did very little to stop the German onslaught into the then USSR IN 1941-43, but did allow Stalin's forces, by giving them transport, to romp into Europe in 1944-45.
A book I recommend is "The Last Thousand Days of the British Empire" by Peter Clarke (2008). I do not agree with all of it, but it makes a lot of very good points from a British point of view.
Last edited by IronDuke99; March 30th, 2016 at 04:23 AM..
Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
As stated earlier it was primarily economic.
After the Spanish-American War in 1898 the US had a few overseas holdings and while there was no chance of building a "British Empire" they could, and did, compete economically, and China was a pretty significant market. The USA became seriously involved in global trade post WW I (why the US Navy expanded so much between WW I and WW II).
__________________
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
The Following User Says Thank You to Suhiir For This Useful Post:
Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"
So a little graphics for RecruitMonty, then back to our arguing
Version 2.0 of Ju-252, with:
1.) Generic Silver Scheme.
2.) Lufthansa Scheme (Black Bands)
3.) All White Winter Scheme.
4.) Green Camouflage Summer Scheme.
5.) All Tan Desert Camouflage.
You'll note that the civilian graphics don't have a top turret.
Last edited by MarkSheppard; March 30th, 2016 at 08:28 PM..
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MarkSheppard For This Useful Post:
I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.
If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.
In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.
Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.
Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.
Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.
What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.
Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.
Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
Still food for thought I hope...
Of course, I have made my own thoughts about an alternate history. Many in fact - hence the different versions of the OOB. I thought, however, that it would be better if people came up with their own story.
Regarding the Eastern Front. There would not be Ukrainian "Nazis" fighting Russians in the Donetsk region at the moment if the Nazis had not been able to make friends with the locals. There were legions of Europeans - east and west alike - who were more than happy to go and fight the Bolsheviks. Don't always believe the hype.
__________________
"Wir Deutschen sollten die Wahrheit auch dann ertragen lernen, wenn sie für uns günstig ist."
Tank (and aircraft) production is never as easy as it seems on paper.
Sure you can whip up a set of blueprints in a few days/weeks and a prototype in a few months. But then the fun begins. Manufacture. It takes time to build a factory, and will the output from that factory be sufficient, do you have access to the material and manpower needed. Post war development runs into the problem of can you get the money.
The WW II Panther was a great tank on the battlefield but suffered from severe mechanical problems due to design flaws. Read up on the road march to Kursk, three of them self destructed due to internal fires and nearly half broke down. The Sherman was mechanically very reliable and easily a match for the Pz III and IV that make up the vast majority of the German forces. A typical case of is it better to have one great tank or ten mediocre ones.
As to a link between the Panther and the post war Leopard ... everyone learned from the design of the T-34, which the Panther was based on, so indirectly the Leopard was a direct result of the Panther, but not in the way most people would think. Tank (and aircraft) design, like any other sort, learns and benefits from whats been done previously.
__________________
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
The Following User Says Thank You to Suhiir For This Useful Post:
Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.
Don't think so. If they had been in a postion to use it becasue the war was dragging on and there were no allied troops inside Germany borders I don't belive there is any doubt it would have been used there first.
Agreed, if allied troops were outside Germany.
I don't think captured German scientists had all that much affect on the early A bombs. Germans who left because of Nazi religious and racial policy did though...
Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
Hybrid Mode
