[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Fyron]

for those of you who look at other news sources besides AM radio and Fox.

No one here does that Rex. You really need to stay away from this thread for a few days so you can cool down and stop saying unfounded things like this.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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for those of you who look at other news sources besides AM radio and Fox.

No one here does that Rex. You really need to stay away from this thread for a few days so you can cool down and stop saying unfounded things like this.

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Your right - I'll stay away, but you did accuse me of "spouting propaganda".

[ March 15, 2003, 23:58: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Fyron]

No I didn't. You never answered the question (at least, I saw no response to it; sorry if I missed it if you did answer it). My request was for someone to answer it without spouting propaganda. There was no accusation against anyone, as no one posted a response to the question (excpet Thermodyne, but that was not an answer, it was just talking about what responses would be). Had you posted a response to it filled with propaganda, then you would have been accused of doing so. But, I do not recall seeing any responses that attempted to answer it.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by rextorres:
How many sources do you need? The London Times is a respected paper BTW - for those of you who look at other news sources besides AM radio and Fox. Just because Rush or O'Reilly conveniently forgets to mention how the U.S. is complicit doesn't make it not true.

The only reason this is mentioned is because some people are blaming France and Germany for the this when we helped arm Saddam in the first plance

No one's addressed the fabricated evidence that Powell presented at the U.N.
And why the pentagon is giving contracts to Cheney's buddies.
Or why we are all of a sudden in the business of nation building.
etc.

Also: I'll listen to this mysterious clip later today - when I have access.

Personally I don't need any more sources, I just need one that shows something like the point you are trying to make. The fact that Iraq was once an ally is not a shock to anyone older than 6. Even if one accepts your accusation that the US is responsible for Sadaam, that only makes it more our job to clean up the mess we made. People aren't mad at France and Germany becasue they also helped make the mess. They are mad because they arn't helping clean it up, and in fact are obstructing our efforts to do so.

Noone has addressed Powell fabricating evidence, because that didn't happen. It's a lie.

The Pentagon gives contracts to lots of people. Cheney has lot's of associates. Everybody in poloitics does. The two facts together aren't proof of dispropreity.

The reason we are all the sudden in the business of nation building is because we are trying to protect the lives of our citizens and our strategic interests. In the past we could do that, or we tried to do that anyway, by exerting political pressure. In a post 9/11 world the rules have changed. When governments support these kind of activities they are held responsible. But you simply can't remove the old bad governemt and leave a vacuum. So we help Afghanistan rebuild, and we'll do it for Iraq too.

Geoschmo

[primitive]

I have just listened to the clip. So what ?
There are Iraqi who is in favor of war, there are Iraqi who are against war.

Nobody in this forum has even vaguely indicated support for Saddam.

To answer the question:
Leaving Saddam in power will do absolutely nothing to promote peace and justice in Iraq.

Replacing Saddam will probably be an improvement in Iraq, but I doubt very much that it will make the world as a whole a better and safer place. I respect people who actually have thought about this and come to the opposite conclusion, but it is very clear (I don't talk about this forum now) that many people on both sides of the fence never have taken 2 minutes to think this over.

[Fyron]

The point is that a major part of the girl's "argument" is that war will cause deaths. A few people will die, sure. But, many more will die if Saddam Hussein is left in power. Many have died from Saddam being in power. The only way to end the madness is to remove him from power. Leaving him in power will not solve any problems. The only way to help the Iraqi people is to remove Saddam. The girl was unable to address this, and many, many people that oppose the war make the same mistakes as her. Appeal to international law, negotiation, all of that stuff has failed repeatedly in the past to help the Iraqi people. You can not peacefully arrest the leader of another nation. All you can do is try to get them to act differently. This has failed repeatedly with Saddam. Do you think we should leave the guy in power so he can commit more atrocities against the Iraqi people?

[primitive]

So the girl is a moron. I'll give you that.

So is a lot of people advocating the opposite view. Pointing out the moronity of your oponents is hardly usefull debating tactics.

[rextorres]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Originally posted by rextorres:
Noone has addressed Powell fabricating evidence, because that didn't happen. It's a lie.

Sorry I couldn't let this drop, but

Are you saying I'm lying or the particular news source CNN is lying? It was big news yesterday.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

BTW I DO listen to O'Reilly and he IS blaming Germany and France for arming Iraq. Obviously not you but other people in this forum implied as much.

It not just any company that one the award, but Haliburton the company which Cheney was CEO.

I personally am for nation building, but one of the center pieces of W's campaign was against nation building and he severly criticized clinton for it.

They wanted to invade before 9/11 btw as the letter to Clinton clearly shows so 9/11 provided the cover not the reason.

[ March 16, 2003, 00:42: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Thermodyne]

This is typical; very few people that are against the war have taken a hard look at the situation. And even fewer offer any solutions that will fix the problem. We gave the region eight years of appeasement and that got 3000+ Americans killed. It got the side blown out of a ship, embassy’s bombed. What does it take to convince these peace nicks that force is the only thing that ½ of the world understands. Someone says lets have a march and the sheep flock out, asking “what are we marching for today?” Then when they find out that it’s a peace march, they think it’s cool. Just like the sixties marches were cool. They seem to be able to overlook the fact that we have been under attack for quite some time now.

We have the choice of responding like Israel, and fighting them in the streets of our cities, or going the hell over to their homes and killing the sick bastards there. Take a good look at Israel; do we really want mandatory military service, lifetime reserve status? Do we want to issue MAC-10’s to everyone so that they can defend their homes. How stupid can these people be? We support Israel, so most of the Arab world hates us, fine. They have the right to hate. But when they reach out and kill some of us, then they also have the right to die by the thousands. The value of human life is very high when viewed individually, but when taken in large Groups, it tends to break down into other indicators, such as economic earning power, contributions to arts and humanities, and the stability of communities. Perhaps the peace marchers should sit home for a few weeks and call the people who lost loved ones on 9/11. I think they might come away with a different perspective after having a look from the individual point of view.

[dogscoff]

in support of rex, there is also the plagiarised "evidence" presented by the UK government Last month. I posted a link to it a few weeks ago.