OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
So you've been fortunate your entire life. That puts you in a great position to comment on the misfortunes of others, now doesn't it?

No, I've worked hard my whole life. Something I doubt that you'll bother to do despite your ranting about it.

I, on the other hand, have been in the position of being UNABLE TO AFFORD said healthcare, food, and lodging. You know what? I SURVIVED. Oddly, you don't see me advocating that this stuff be made available to all at somebody else's expense.

Why should I believe a word of what you've just written? You're a known liar, so you'll have to do better than claim your own personal experiences.

Edit: Fixed the quoting

[ July 29, 2004, 00:01: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
When there are people, who are capable of working, who _refuse_ to work even when offered a job - let them starve.

I somewhat agree...
if people are lazy we shouldn't just blindly feed them and give them free healthcare otherwise a percentage will reproduce and a high percentage of them will follow or be stuck the same example.

The best solution is to instead give them food for a few days and teach them how to fish. Have them realize the rewards of working such as getting healthcare. I definitely believe in helping others, but only with permanent/productive solutions... not some lifetime leeching plan.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
I've been out of work for over four months (laid off, Marine and programmer always employed for 22 years straight), I should be supporting Graeme and the welfare state!

What welfare state? I wasn't aware that the equivalent of making health insurance mandatory and universal was the equivalent of a welfare state. I'm not supporting a comfortable lifestyle for those people who don't want to work, and suggesting that I am is nothing more than a strawman. I am suggesting that a person should be guaranteed enough resources so that they aren't malnourished, as long as they don't waste those resources on anything that is unnecssary. If they want to waste that money, then yes, let them starve, but at least try and help their children so that they don't end up like their parents.

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"Help their children so they don't end up like their parents"? In the case of the unemployed single mother with 8 kids (I believe that was the gist of your example), the only way to help the children is by taking them away from the parent. And spaying the parent. (We do it to dogs and cats, and dogs and cats are generally nicer 'people' than humans.)

You said we should support that mother of 8. That's a welfare state. You said that we should ensure that no one starves, no one is in poverty, no one is homeless, regardless of whether or not they're able to work but choose not to. That's a welfare state.

As I said - I think we ought to work harder at providing _opportunities_ for people to work; health care, education, the prison systems, etc, shouldn't be set up with profit as their sole motive (which is what privatization is all about). We should fix the system so that CEOs don't get obscene bonuses for screwing their employees, their communities, and the environment over.

But with Boy George preparing for a second term in office, and Little Jeb planning to occupy the White House after that, none of those things are going to happen. Not with the @#$#@ Bush Dynasty trying to rework the USA's politics and system.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Even if there is only a .0000000001% chance that God does exist is more then enough reason to do what's right or risk burning in Hell eternally.

There's no evidence to suggest this is a bad thing, either. According to the Bible, Heaven is hotter than Hell. It's not a nice place to be.

That's where you turn to the Bible and read where only mankind is referred to as having a soul. When that soul is created is only known by God therefore saying abortion is okay could get someone into big trouble during judgment day.

I'm familiar with that part, yes. Don't you think people should be allowed to take that risk, though?

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Apparently you:
Drive a tank throughout the town you live in.

Amazingly, antique vehicles as such are not difficult to acquire at modest cost. It's not like I'm driving a state-of-the-art vehicle here. It's no different from driving a tractor or bulldozer around, a not-uncommon occurrence in rural areas where I happen to live.

Don't sleep for days at a time.

I have chronic insomnia. It's not an uncommon affliction, and sleep is singularly unrestful for me.

You'be been shot in the back by people before while not at war.

You said it yourself, America's a violent and dangerous place, particularly in nasty urban areas. I also have been shot before as part of work-related injuries.

Believe that if a person can do something that they must have actually done that thing.

I never said that. I merely said that this is a safe assumption to operate under.

You live as a hermit, wear kevlar, and travel while heavily armed.

Many heavily-armed hermits dwell in Montana. As a conversation I once had with somebody Online went as I pointed out people like you complaining about this very thing, he replied, "I'm from Montana. We call you normal."

What a coincidence that I just happen to be a resident of Montana. Such behavior is not uncommon out here.

Body armor and weapons are not hard to come by. Need I point you to a website where you, too, can purchase your own Kevlar vests, or do you think you can manage that on your own?

That such a person exists anywhere outside of a mad max movie strains believability.

Oh, be serious. Mad Max is entirely a movie. How the hell does he afford all that gas for all that driving anyway, with the world being in that condition?

[Boron]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:


but if you think about it the guidlines of the church HAVE been wrong before (flat earth, anyone?) and could easily be wrong again. Thats no reason to cut all ties with the organization that you might respect and love deeply.

so a question : galilei was the one who discovered that . i am pretty sure you know the story . the catholic church forced him to deny his ideas . he did .

but now some hundred years later the pope spoke galilei holy .


Actually, I think most of the stories about people thinking the world is flat are apocryphal. Certainly, the Greeks knew it was round and the flat earth was not the reason Galileo was persecuted.

The issue there was whether the Sun or the Earth lay at the centre of the solar system. Catholic teaching demanded that it be the Earth, but Galileo knew otherwise.

And yes, official recognition of the error was only forthcoming from the Catholic church in recent times.

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yeah it was the sun . i just quoted Cheezeninja's
and didn't notice that small fault .
but the old astrologists like galileo are really good examples for that and similiar with darwin some catholic sects still claim that the bible is true and the earth got formed in 6 days .

the main problem with the catholic church i have is that they are the most "aggressive" big world religion . they evangelise still intolerant .
in history they even forced other beliefs violently to theirs like the inqisition in spain or the crusades .
on the other hand the muslims tolerated catholic beliefers in the middle ages and didn't force them to get either catholic or killed .
same with the force proselitiziation of the native americans .
protestants , buddhists and so on try to convince you rational that their faith is the one true but if they can't convince you they don't treat you as a worse human .
while the catholic church is much more agressive and treats you as inferior if you don't let you convince to become catholic and stay with your belief .

that makes me fear . fanaticism is evil . just look at bin laden . but the muslim faith is in general more tolerant bin laden is only a sect which isn't even tolerated by the muslim leaders while the catholic church seems to me much more fanatic and they tolerate , even support extreme and almost violent catholic sects .
at least in europe the catholics are this way perhaps the american catholics are more moderate because they are not as dependent on the pope as the european ones and they are not the majority in the usa so they can't afford to be as arrogant as they are in europe .
in the area where i life protestants are a small minority ( about 5-10% ) and especially the old catholics are still very intolerant and even show us protestants that we are very inferior in their eyes .
they would almost like to start a new 30 years war lol .
so my view of the catholics is perhaps a bit biased by own expierience .
of course every major group has "black sheeps" but normally the main organisation tries to get rid of these "black sheeps" .
while with the catholic church this is the other way round . there the highest leaders not only tolerate these black sheeps but even share their opinions .

it is like e.g. in a democracy still some or many politicians are corrupt but at least a democracy tries to limit corruption while in a dictature it is supported and the dictator him self profits most from that .
the pope is in many ways similiar to that .
the current pope is good and rather modest but his most likely successor ratzinger is very intolerant again .

[ July 28, 2004, 12:56: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
The best solution is to instead give them food for a few days and teach them how to fish. Have them realize the rewards of working such as getting healthcare. I definitely believe in helping others, but only with permanent/productive solutions... not some lifetime leeching plan.

Well, you know the saying. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you've just lost a perfectly good customer.

The "Work or Starve" plan, on the other hand, has a singular element of elegance to it. One way or another, the problem takes care of itself. Nature loves self-correcting systems, and so do I.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
I am not a "fictional characterization".

Of course you are. You're nothing more than a teenager living in your parents house.

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Either that, or perhaps he is indeed old and senile, as he claim he is. It becomes hard to distinquish the immaturity level due to very young and very old age. But all his bizzare stories about his very own T34 that he drives around, and his duels with LAWS and guns on the highways, sugest very immature person who can not be taken seriosly. Although he clearly do not reilize it himself, thinking that he sounds cool and tough.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Originally posted by NT Jedi:
That's where you turn to the Bible and read where only mankind is referred to as having a soul. When that soul is created is only known by God therefore saying abortion is okay could get someone into big trouble during judgment day.

I find the idea that god is watching us every step of our lives taking notes rather amusing. I mean why should he?

Lets assume you knew the position of every piece of matter that exists, had a complete understanding of all physical laws, and the brainpower to calculate everything (all 3 things which I assume the christian god would have), then you would know the outcome of ones live before he would even be born. So why would god create souls for people he already knows are going to burn in hell?

It is my personal understanding that we are the ones who judge ourselfes after live. Maybe we will see got and understand what we did wrong and what was right, the joy for the good things being heaven and the despise for the bad things being hell.
In any case, doing something not because you fear god could punish you is like cheating. I mean, translate it in other words: I would do it if there was no god. And I think that says everything about your personality.
Goodness is something you do from your own free will, and not because you are forced to.

[ July 29, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
But all his bizzare stories about his very own T34 that he drives around

You want me to show you a site you can buy some of this stuff?

http://www.coldwarremarketing.com/

Go get your own. They're not THAT hard to get, you know.

and his duels with LAWS and guns on the highways

I think you may have greatly exaggerated the magnitude of the actual shootout. It doesn't work that way in real life. Too many movies for you, Storm.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
Lets assume you knew the position of every piece of matter that exists, had a complete understanding of all physical laws, and the brainpower to calculate everything (all 3 things which I assume the christian god would have), then you would know the outcome of ones live before he would even be born. So why would god create souls for people he already knows are going to burn in hell?

Because it's funny? Let's face it: If you were an all-powerful being with such capabilities, why would you bother creating the universe at all, if not for the sheer entertainment value involved in doing so? Clearly, if there's a God, he's a very bored individual with too much time on his hands. I mean, hell, look at me. I'm just a retired old coot, and I'm bored and have too much time on my hands. What must it be like to be immortal and all-powerful, living for all eternity? Must be damn boring. I'd sure do something whacky like creating a universe or two.

If God exists, the platypus is proof that he has a sense of humor.