National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics

[Endoperez]

What summons? Ethereal beasts, like seasonal spirits or Ether monsters? Or masses of undead critters? Or any other summons with lor protection?

Cast Blade Wind a few times.

If he has low-mr critters, don't bother with Soul Slay and like. Go staright for Control or Opposition! Or if those aren't magical creatures (and even if they are) Charm should work just okay.

Also, you can use some nice magic items to give out awesome amounts of damage. As an example, Banefire is a wonderful spell that dishes out lots of armor-negating damage. Give Sceptre of Corruption (blood-4?, artifact) to someone with Bots of Quickness, and an Eye of Aiming if he nees it. Give him some bodyguards that have a chance against lesser horrors so that he stays up for a few more turns. Go Killing Them. You need some distraction for a while, so recruit cheap indies. put them before your real troops. And remember that fatique is the greatest enemy of SCs! After they have slaugheter your militia (if no life-draining) or soulless(if they have life-draining) they have collected some fatique, and now your elites can go to kill him. Remember, even as his fatique goes up he has been the targeted by most your mages and other comanders... Including those using items for Banefire, and those having Bow of Botulf, Cyclop's Bane (what's the real name of that bow?), Rod of the Phoenix, whatever. I haven't really tried it out in action, but I have killed few SC's in my MP-games. I didn't bother putting militia to the front, as my elites were more than a match for those Ulmite black pates... And Fall Bears met Blade Wind.

This might have become somewhat longish... Well, I started writing it as my 0.02?. I think it's about 0.07? ATM. Many of my favourite tricks I have never had the possibility to try out in multi.

[ April 25, 2004, 12:12: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[Tris]

How can this be a problem?

There is already a solution, mentioned earlier in the thread - playing a game with difficult research and fewer sites makes for a more "national" game.

If you want loads of high level magic, then expect it to take over. Either that or agree with everyone which spells none of you are going to use before the game starts, but I'd go with the low research and magic option if I were you.

[Cohen]

I'm not asking how to deal with them, how to use Y to counter X.

I'm saying, as you told ... Fall Bear and SC ... and all the Ulmish infantry? Disappeared?

And what did you told about? Magic items, spells and so on ...

Militia ... swordfodder.
Elite ... to intervene only when enemy is fatigued?

What battle is this???
From militia to elite troops should be the BULK of the battle, not magic items, or SC or summons nor mages. Instead they're.

I prefer xbow to counter knights, light cav to make knights wasting lance, militia to fatigue enemy heavy inf, archers to take down light infantry and so on ...
This is strategy & tactics ...
We add some mages casting some spells and so on ...

I'd add a morale malus if there'sn't at least one commander leading the squad in battle ... so fighting commanders are valued too ... if national troops are enhanced and used.

Add new scales like Military, or Backsmithing ...
something like you can have a pre move in the battle or to improve little you common soldier equipment ... something similar to add strenght to troops ...

Drain/Magic scale can affect magic or summoned units too ... they tend to fade away if there'isnt't enough Magic or their full strenght is at Dominion 10 ... and they become weaker the less the Dominion is ...

And so on


PS: For fatigue ... well, relief spell, summon earthpower, renvigoration, earth blessing, girdle of might, amulet of resilience and so on ... so it'sn't such a burden ... oh damn ... a VQ or an Undead SC doesn't suffer from fatigue at all (in combat).

[HotNifeThruButr]

Even with very difficult research, you eventually reach the part of the game where magic dominates, it just doesn't happen insanely fast.

[Cohen]

The problem is that most players want "standard" settings ...

I agree with Nation enhancments, but not to standard troops ...

New weaponry, tactic and so on Scales ...
Another set of scales ... to improve common units.

A dispelling battle spell ... another spell enabling to give "magic attribute" to weapons of common troops.

Not all summons are good ... well, let's do only the good summons ...

I'm not saying mages are bad ! Instead I agree and use a lot National Mages ... because they're included in Nation peculiarity.

SC should be not "Super Combatant" but "Good Combatant", even I'll do less powerful items, and more standard type magic item, that not increase only morale but even other things.

Change the rule of the assassins ... pre-fight with only bodyguard on 75% chance ... on 25% assassins avoid them (they should be skilled in that) ... because in a month the assassin should find a nice moment to strike, and start directly near the victim and with the first action cause surprise ... I suppose an assassin strike when the victim is distracted, with a starting backstab.

Here I see however plenty of ideas there can fit in.
I'll add more when I concretize them, I hope only Illwinter devs read there and do something.

[Graeme Dice]

As long as a particular SC is not immune to every element, then most national mages should not have too much trouble dealing with it. Air mages have thunder strike, fire mages have incinerate, water mages have frozen heart, and earth mages have petrify. For undead SC's, astral nations always have communion and Light of the Northern Star to boost the damage of solar rays. Astral fires is also a good possibility. Death mages have many spells to use against undead SC's, and have drain life against most other things. Blood mages are not really very good on the battlefield, but can field their own SC's and devils, which are both very effective. Nature magic doesn't have a lot that will help, although charm can be quite effective against non-pretenders.

[Huzurdaddi]

There is already a solution, mentioned earlier in the thread - playing a game with difficult research and fewer sites makes for a more "national" game.

Fewer sites and hard research WOOT! Let's play! I call a blood nation!

[HotNifeThruButr]

Huzurdaddi makes a good point, and so does Cohen. Standard settings on Aran (at least for me) almost always makes normal soldiers obsolete after 1/4 of the game.

[Cohen]

Huzurdaddy told a right thing ... Magic Site freq should be "related" to the magic site freq settings, so Slaves found are correlated to gems founded.

Well, for mages taking out SC, as Graeme told, isn't very easy because there's SC-Fodder shielding them, attracting the spells ...
so on SC vs SC is almost the lone chance ...

The fact is that one single unit, pretender, Sc or similar, should't actually destroy any regular army. And why I've to stop an SC only by magic? What Ulm can do? Where's the strength of stell, the valour of soldiers, the epic of heroic acts, and battle tactics if all solve with magery and related summons?

Who win the game?
Who's the most clams ... who has the best research and the more gems, and best SCs.

Nation matters only early expansion ...
I know sometimes I repeat myself ... but I've very fond in this topic.
____________________________
Most magic summons have high morale (like undead), so very difficult to rout, and not only, high morale prevents them from repelling, and distruct any Awe benefits ... this is to solve too ...
Awe can work as a "X damage Shield" on Magic and Undead creatures...

What to do for repel?

[ April 26, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Huzurdaddi]

And don't forget more that's great about blood with rules like this : you don't need research!

Construction 2 : Soul Contract! YAY!
Blood 3: Bind Devil
Blood 5: Bind Ice Devil

Honestly I don't think I need anymore than that.

Hell I probably don't even need more than Soul Contract!

YAY! Let's even make research super-duper hard!