A wise idea for IW?

[SurvivalistMerc]

I think we should be expressing our appreciation to the devs of Dom 2.

They actually come to this board and answer our questions about game mechanics. How many other games have that? I remember AoW:SM and Heaven Games. They came by once in a while to make a comment or two. There was no guarantee that they'd come by and answer even a legitimate question when asked politely. Sometimes they'd be gone from the Boards for weeks. JO and KO are a treasure. And I think that their participation on this board goes a long way toward my being happy with Dom 2 even though I paid full price, which was like $50.00 plus some rather high shipping and handling charge.

The mod tools they've given us are excellent. And these tools will make the game playable far into the future with new mods and new maps even if they decide to move on to greener pastures. Which I don't expect they'll do.

I'm going to take the position that we shouldn't encourage illwinter or shrapnel to charge another $20.00 for an expansion unless it has much better graphics. If they want to do that...then let's see what they produce before we either praise them or decide to become disgruntled. IW/Shrapnel doesn't have a history of producing "must have" updates shortly after releasing a game like TSR or Microsoft. And I have a hard time seeing that as anything but a positive as a consumer.

(This is not intended as a rant. But I don't want to join those who praise the graphics of Dom 2. I think they are serviceable at best. But they don't matter all that much so long as the gameplay is rich...I'll agree with that.)

I'm with Gandalf Parker...it would be great to get in on an initial public offering of IW stock.

[alexti]

Originally posted by Zurai:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PDF:

And about the price tag, I happen to have bought KotoR some time after Dom2 : with KotoR (40 EUR)I had maybe 20 hours of play, it cost me 2 EUR/hr. And it's over, I don't plan to play it again anytime soon. Even if I replay the game 1 time cost would be 1 EUR/hr.
With Dom I should have played at least 100 hrs, and spent the same time elaborating strategies, reading docs, toyed with modding, etc ... and I'll surely play it for another 100 hrs !
Best bang for the buck gaming investment, and it also made me meet new friends !

You're comparing apples to rutabagas here. Comparing a very linear RPG to a TBS in the hours-played department is sheer folly. At least pick a LONG linear RPG, eg Baldur's Gate 2.

---

PDF's comparison is perfectly valid. He isn't comparing the qualities of the games, just the cost of entertainment per hour.

Originally posted by Zurai:
A better comparison would be Dom 2 vs Civ 3. Civ was buyable at $40 at release, had much better graphics, infinitely better interface, and depending on your preferences and prejudices the gameplay is just as good.

I don't know why you find Civ 3 interface better, it was micromanagement hell on any map larger than small. To make things worse a lot of micromanagement was kind of obvious.

And gameplay in Civ 3 was quite different, so it's hard to compare which is better, it's more about your tastes. I liked Civ 3, but it didn't stay on my drive as long as Dom 2 and Dom 2 is probably going to stay for a few more years. The main reason is that Dom 2 is in the league of its own in the depth of the gameplay. As I see it there're few factors that made it. 1) Unlinked research (each school is independent from each other), unlike tightly-linked Civ 3 tree. 2) Much more significant difference between nations units and their research paths possibilities. 3) intensive research is not directly linked with territorial expansion. 4) Magic gems added a whole new layer to the model.

So combination of these factors produces many more ways to play and strategies. One can only wonder, how they managed to make AI capable of handling this complexity (well, at least to some extent)

[Karacan]

I'll buy Dominions III.

[Argitoth]

An expansion pack will actually pursuade customers not to buy the game.

Low Price + Expansion = Happy Customers
High Price + Expansion = Mad Customers

[Arryn]

This argument over pricing and customer loyalty is ridiculous. The people who will buy Dom will do so regardless of whether the game costs $30 or it costs $50. (Unless they are high school or college kids without much spare money in the first place.) People look at the demo, and either hate the game, or they love it. There's not much in between, and price is usually not the deciding factor. Good customer support is, and Dom has the best. If they don't already love the demo, getting the game cheap isn't going to sway them. Folks who are unsure about the game aren't likely to shell out even $30. What they'll do is look at reviews, come here and do some homework, and then reconsider whether they'll buy or not.

So the real qustion is whether having IW go through the enormous bother of creating an expansion pack is worth their time, and the patience and goodwill of the customers who already own the game. Note that I don't say the customer's money, because most Dom fans will pay for anything that IW publishes. Period. They might grumble about it, but they'll do it.

That pretty much leaves it at whether it's worth IW's time. Frankly, no. The development effort for an expansion pack would be almost the same as for Dom III, and IW couldn't charge as much money. Plus, to make things even worse, they'd increase their support costs in both money and time. Not a good idea.

Best if they stick to their present business plan, which is put out "small" (2.08 wasn't small, per se) patches as they have the time and willingness to do so, while seeing how well Dom 2 sells, before they jump into any new major programming tasks (like a Dom 3).

[Saber Cherry]

I intensely dislike expansion packs. In fact, I have only purchased one in my life (for Morrowind) and regretted it. If I have not purchased the game, I would not want to spend $70+ to buy the "complete" game; and if I have already bought the game, being forced to pay extra for an expansion irks me. Kohan had an expansion, which I did not buy, and which resulted in my being unable to play multiplayer games. AoW2 had an "expansion" that I consider mainly a bugfix, which I also did not buy. Bugfix expansions tell me, "If we screwed up, you're the one that will pay."

Expansions, IMO, segment the community - something that is not a good idea. I see them as a way to milk profits from a half-assed effort, and when the expansion + original are released in a "treasure chest", like Blizzard does, I see them as a way of milking profits by abusing the most devoted fans.*

Microsoft is a good example. For several generations, Word and Excel have added no new useful functionality for most Users... the only important change was to generate files in a format incompatible with old Versions, so that owners would be forced to upgrade even though their current Version was adequate. Windows 98 is also a good example; it is essentially a bugfix for Windows 95, which cost (at release) over $100.

In my opinion, software products released by a company should be either distinct, or free upgrades. Penalizing early adopters, as Blizzard (and sometimes Microsoft) likes to do, makes their early adopters hate them.

In other words, I would rather that effort be spent either fixing bugs OR designing a next-generation product, but not on devising schemes to generate additional income from the most devoted fanbase by selling marginal enhancements to an existing product. To put it bluntly: I will never again buy an expansion pack, and will never buy the first Version of a product from a company that engages in "expansion pack tactics".

-Cherry

*Edit:

In other words, devoted fans have to pay full price for the expansion pack, but people that waited get the expansions for free. Thus, the hardcore fans are penalized. If a company punishes people for trusting them... well, downhill is the only way to go. Unless the fanbase is a group of devoted, gullible masochists, like... hmmm... some companies spawn.

[ February 25, 2004, 01:14: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Arryn]

Morrowind, as a game, was pretty complete, and I consider it to be arguably the best FRPG made to date. That said, the "expansion packs" to it are glorified mods + bugfixes. Civ3 is the same. One of the best 4X games ever made, with an expansion pack that should have been free.

OTOH, the Diablo 2 expansion is good stuff, but my beef with Blizzard is they charge far too much money for all their stuff. Still, I'm foolish enough to pay for it, so I can't really gripe too much.

The upcoming SWG expansion adds space travel and other features ... that were promised before the beta for SWG began and then dropped after the early testers (like me) signed on. It's reprehensible for companies to promise something, then cut features, release a half-finished product, and then charge for the missing features using an "expansion".

About the only game I can think of that provides good expansion content, and at a reasonable price, is Neverwinter Nights. Too bad it's owned by Atari, who after MOO3, I am loathe to contribute my money to ...

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arryn:
About the only game I can think of that provides good expansion content, and at a reasonable price, is Neverwinter Nights. Too bad it's owned by Atari, who after MOO3, I am loathe to contribute my money to ...

NWN is owned by Bioware. Atari is the publisher mostly because Atari has the Forgotten Realms license.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
NWN is owned by Bioware. Atari is the publisher mostly because Atari has the Forgotten Realms license.

Well, since you feel like quibbling, check out the NWN trademark. It's owned, as I said, by Atari, who bought out Infogrames. The page clearly states this. Bioware only owns the rights to the engine, not the game (copyright) or the game's trademarked name.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I intensely dislike expansion packs. In fact, I have only purchased one in my life (for Morrowind) and regretted it. If I have not purchased the game, I would not want to spend $70+ to buy the "complete" game; and if I have already bought the game, being forced to pay extra for an expansion irks me. Kohan had an expansion, which I did not buy, and which resulted in my being unable to play multiplayer games. AoW2 had an "expansion" that I consider mainly a bugfix, which I also did not buy. Bugfix expansions tell me, "If we screwed up, you're the one that will pay."

Expansions, IMO, segment the community - something that is not a good idea. I see them as a way to milk profits from a half-assed effort, and when the expansion + original are released in a "treasure chest", like Blizzard does, I see them as a way of milking profits by abusing the most devoted fans.*

Microsoft is a good example. For several generations, Word and Excel have added no new useful functionality for most Users... the only important change was to generate files in a format incompatible with old Versions, so that owners would be forced to upgrade even though their current Version was adequate. Windows 98 is also a good example; it is essentially a bugfix for Windows 95, which cost (at release) over $100.

In my opinion, software products released by a company should be either distinct, or free upgrades. Penalizing early adopters, as Blizzard (and sometimes Microsoft) likes to do, makes their early adopters hate them.

In other words, I would rather that effort be spent either fixing bugs OR designing a next-generation product, but not on devising schemes to generate additional income from the most devoted fanbase by selling marginal enhancements to an existing product. To put it bluntly: I will never again buy an expansion pack, and will never buy the first Version of a product from a company that engages in "expansion pack tactics".

-Cherry

*Edit:

In other words, devoted fans have to pay full price for the expansion pack, but people that waited get the expansions for free. Thus, the hardcore fans are penalized. If a company punishes people for trusting them... well, downhill is the only way to go. Unless the fanbase is a group of devoted, gullible masochists, like... hmmm... some companies spawn.

THIS!!! IS!!! EXACTLY!!! WHAT!!!... I am talking about. Right on the spot. Exactly.

I cannot buy a game unless I can buy all the expansions, bottom line. I feel so deprived of the real thing if I buy just the game without the expansions.