Beware of Ashdod

[Lingchih]

Beaten by Ashdod in last team game. No one dared attack them. They slowly but surely took all VP provs needed to win.

Nuff said

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by cthulhu

Zamzummites cost 310 gold, not 250.

So Edi's database contains an error
Even with 310 gold they are too powerful. IMO they are lesser version of Dai-oni which can be builded everywhere, and they are immune to the anti-demon spells.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

Pretty much making my point for me.
Your idea of an efficient researcher - the Talmai - cost 44gp/rp.
Compare that with other nations at 25/rp.

Everyone considers the Seshai the preeminent sacred warrior of MA. Unit for unit - probably right. But effectiveness per gp - and I don't think they are even close.
At a cost of 125 gp - and 48 resources.. I can get *5* jaguar warriors.

And 5 jaguar warriors with a competent bless are going to beat 1 sheshai -every time.
So, on the critical question of effectiveness/gp - Mictlan - and a lot of other nations - win.


The problem is that jaguar warriors attrit - and sheshai don't. AND ashdod can get up to the point where he's cranking out 4-6 of these every turn, from one castle given time Mictlan, to crank out 20-30 of these per turn will need 3-4 castles.

Ashdod has to be jumped on fast - but I don't seem them as I dont see these as worse than niefle.



Lingchi made the point that everyone was afraid to attack ashdod - and so they won. But I would submit to you that its a self fulfilling prophecy. Don't attack any nation - and they *will* win. The opponents of ashdod decided to ignore the 600 lb gorilla in the room - which is a sure recipe to lose.

Ashdod has a number of great advantages.
-First, people don't know how to counter - and are afraid to.
-Second, their sacred troops don't require a lot of bless. Frankly, I think an F4-6N4-8 is all thats required, although an S assist for the magic resistance is a good thing.
-Third they don't attrit. They take almost no casualties, so they benefit strongly from experience. Which means that the 600 pound gorilla is much stronger later than earlier.
And on that same point- the game graphs are deceptive.

People tend to rank leaders by province, gem income, army strength, and perhaps research. But the army strength graph in asdods case is almost meaningless.. (same sort of problem with niefle)..

[AreaOfEffect]

Understood, the Talmai are less efficient to buy, but Gregstrom was referring more to the upkeep cost then the initial cost. If you go back to the Sages, the gold/RP is about 29. Not the best by any stretch, but not the worse either. The point I think people make about their research is that it is simply good enough that it isn't a weakness. People often feel you should trade early game power for late game power. Ashdod doesn't do this by having average research. Plus there are the little things, like the lack of old age and near immunity to remote killing spells and such. Also, once they have the research, their mages are capable of a lot.

I will agree that fear can be a greater killer then your enemy, which is why Don made this post in the first place. His advice is that turtling is not a valid tactic to use against them.

P.S.: Mictlan can only make jaguar warriors at home in the middle age.

[MaxWilson]

Zamzummites are better than Ktonian Necromancers in several respects (strat move, HP, Precision, no old age, lower Enc, thuggable, +1 D) and worse in three (cost +20% or so, research -1, -1 F). Much as I love Ktonian Necros I'd say that Zamzummites are far superior. If Ashdod only had Zamzummites and cap-only S3 Talmais as recruitable commanders I would be content--everything else is just gravy. Yeah, just my biases showing, but Zamzummites are awesome.

I really don't see 5 Jaguar Warriors beating a Sheshai Anakite. Or even if they do, 5 Ahiman Anakites can likely kill unlimited numbers of Jaguar Warriors. I think regular units won't be taking down Ahimans short of either 1.) lots of high damage weapons (EA Ulm does okay with Steel Maidens, knights do too) or 2.) Destruction/Iron Bane. Oh, or 3.) Cold dominion and/or swamps for the extra +2 enc. The combination of 0 encumbrance (w/ E10) and high Prot is hard to get past. Non-Earth nations with no Cold dominion like Mictlan will probably struggle (have to ambush them in swamps). However... I'm not at home so I haven't tested this. Maybe you're right and 10 jags really can take down an E10N6 Ahiman in normal terrain.

-Max

[cthulhu]

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

Huh, who would take a bless like that with Mictlan? With MA you can either have W9F9 or W9F9 as it's mainly for eagle warriors. Only EA and LA Mictlan can live with very heavy bless and rely on blood sacred summons.

[AreaOfEffect]

Clearly cthulhu doesn't know a thing about MA Mictlan. Good luck finding a god for F8W9B9.

[cthulhu]

F8W9B9 is not intended as an example of a recommended bless for mictlan, just as a bless which would allow jaguar warriors to trounce the comparable gold cost of anakites. Likewise I'm also not intending to imply any reliance on blood magic except for the bless. I'm aware that taking it requires seriously nasty scales, and isn't much good for anything other than punching through the armor of anakites. ie a "special purpose bless".
W9F9 is not enough to let 5 jaguar warriors reliably kill a well blessed anakite, considering that the anakite resists the fire damage, has more armor than the jaguar warriors base damage in either form even before bezerking, accumulates fatigue much slower, and will be regenerating health reasonably fast.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

But examples should be realistic No one will create a nation just to counter one other nation, especially when it's 20 people game. And compare what Mictlan gets in normal forts [Nahuallis are a joke, S1N2 non-sacred mage? compared to Zamzummite?]. Ashdod could be very strong if you take Zamzummites, Talmai Elders and national summons completely from them.