Are Clams worth empowering for?

[Hadrian_II]

I think the problem about gem producing items is that if you seriously forge them, you begin to become stronger on an exponentionally curve. But clams need other paths to forge than the gems that they produce, so they are not as stron.

Blood stones on the other hand only cost 7 earth gems, so they begin to pay for themselves really fast, maybe it would be a good idea to make them more expensive.

But i think that gem producing items give non blood nations some ability to get stronger like the blood ones (as you can hunt about as many blood slaves as you want).

[DenStoreFrelser]

If possible, I think the best way to deal with the gem-creating items would be to put a limit of ten or so of each item per nation or game. Basically just adding a few lines of code to the clams and other items, so that before they create a gem they check an integer value, if it is not below the maximum number nothing happens, otherwise it is increased by one and the item does what it usually does. (My programming knowledge is limited to a bit of Java, so this probably won't be as simple as I think, but I like to pretend that I know stuff.)

A thematic reason to add a limit to the amount of gem generating items could be that they absorb ambient magical energy from the world like the arcane nexus spell, and that there's a limit to how much of this it is possible to capture in a single month.

Hadrian_II has a point about this issue "balancing" with how blood nations can get more magical resources than the others, but isn't blood hunting pretty useless in provinces with high unrest? I think it's easier to damage blood income than it is to take out hordes of clam carrying researchers hiding beneath two or three domes and an army.

[Tuidjy]

I do not like clams/fetishes/blood gems, but whenever it is not too much trouble, I
craft them. They are a damn useful thing to have on a scout sneaking along a
conquering army. And if the game looks like a long one, they're a good strategy.

If it were up to me, I would make the probability of each item generating a gem on
any particular turn be

numberOfProvincesOnMap / (5 * numberOfItemsOfThisType)

Rounded down to one, of course. I dislike putting a hard limit on items, as
this gives a very solid advantage to the first player to craft them.

[DrPraetorious]

It would be interesting to have their efficiency decline as more are crafted, but I think the net effect would be that no-one would make them ever.

Personally, I'd like it if they produced 5 (say) gems/combat which vanish at the end of combat if not spent.

Then you would actually use them to keep combat mages supplied with spells, as they are intended to be used. This would actually *reduce* micromanagement, see.

[jutetrea]

Oooh! I like that Idea Dr. P.

Are there any current parallels in the game? Almost seems like it would be possible to change the stone bird into say a blood slave (possibly a bloodthirsty blood slave), have it multiplied by 10 and somehow work out the transition from blood slave usage to gem usage.

Slave ina box!

What game was it that used ammo carts? Carry them around almost like a packmule and it doubles your ammo. Heroes?

While it would reduce micromanagement in general to have a central/army gem distributor (one guy with a bunch of gems, mages take as they need) - the AI wouldn't play nicely with it.

Which goes back to Dr. P's idea, which I still like!

I do disagree that folks wouldn't maket them if they had diminishing returns though. Instead of the whole "clam hoarding" idea, its still nice to have 10-12 just to increase your base astral income.

If codeable i'd still like increasing costs (and/or path req, possibly up to 3W3N so the naied can still forge):
Clams 1-3
5W5N
Clams 4-10
10W5N
Clams 11-20
15W5N
Clams 21-30
20W10N
etc

[lillumultipass]

Waouh, it seems that, for once, I have started an interesting discussion, albeit quite involuntarily.

I have to concur with some opinions that clamming adds a bit of micro-management to a game already plagued by micro. I say plagued, because for me, the main deterrent to playing the game really is the micro associated with late games.
It is a bit of a problem since I also love waging big wars and using costly spells. But there are just so many things that could be automated or done more convenient (like being able to give move orders for more than the next turn, or yeah, auto-forging...)

As to the clams issue: I have played a lot of collectible card games, and usually, when a strategy becomes prevalent/too powerful, the card is either nerfed or banned, or some new cards are created in the next set that counterbalance this strategy. I agree that a strategy that is used by every single nation in the game as a way to be competitive should not exist.

Finally, thanks, I had never thought about Ctrl-choosing my forgers. The problem is, I think they are not located in the same province. But I only have three for the moment, so that's ok.

[quantum_mechani]

Meglobob said:

I believe clams etc were already nerfed from Dom2 to Dom3, by increasing the gem cost.

They have infact already been nerfed so far they are hardly recognizable, originally they took 2w and 10 gems, now it's 20 gems and 3w1n. The only times I have ever forge clams in dom3 is in the few cases where I have mage with the combo, and need astral so badly that I would otherwise end up alchimizing for it.

It's probably possible to eventually get a decent clam income going, but any game that is not perpetuality style is quite unlikely to still be in doubt past turn 100. And further, if I was going to be worried about a hoarding item, the blood stone is far deadlier as things stand.

So, I think the current nerf was probably a good thing, but people are paraniod to still be seriously afaid of clamming in 99% of cases, considering even at the crazy dom2 settings it was hardly unbeatable.

[Xietor]

By turn 60 in 1 game I am in, the clam production already is over 100 per turn.

Blood stones also need addressed.

The Alpaca game, is on turn 100 and the outcome is still in doubt, playing on Edi's fixed cradle of dominions map. It would be easy to have a wish a turn income by turn 100.

Gem producing items completely undermine the value of global spells designed to boost gem income.

[Meglobob]

Some people might like to cast 1 wish per turn by turn 100.

If they have managed to survive and achieve that position, good luck to them. At least they should bring a end to game soon, something I sometimes wish for by that stage!

The globals get cast turns 30'ish to 60, so they are not affected at all really. Also you can only have 5 globals, so only 5 players (if that) are allowed extra gems? A bit unfair.

Blood hunting by a blood nation makes clamming/blood stones/fetish farming all look rubbish. By turn 50 a blood nation can have a blood slave income of 300 - 400 plus per turn.

They are all viable strategies, people may not like them, others do, ban them on a individual game basis but don't ask for them to be nerfed more or banned.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:

Gem producing items completely undermine the value of global spells designed to boost gem income.

Gem globals are some of the most popular globals there are, I'd say at least half of those that get cast are gem globals. Playing on past turn 100 is certainly possible, but out of the ~25 longterm dominions games I've played, I've seen it happen once.

EDIT: And is the 100 clams by turn 60 with or without forge of the ancients?