Range doubling

[Mobhack]

Then there is the fact that the "range doubling" has cut down the blast effects of HE rounds from arty and other stuff, since his hexes are now 25 units and not 50 - so a shell that had 1 hex splash effect (or MG fire) would need to be 2 now. That really would need code mods, and also previously same-hex stuff like say a 60mm mortar rond would need a 1 hex (25 units) blast effect. Could be done by fiddling with warhead size in his pet OOB files of course - but that then makes the weapons more effective (increased warhead size increases kill effec, and has side effects on things like immobilising or penetrating AFV). So he has opened another can-o-worms. But he has halved the effect of HE, basically.

Also, the points calculator weights weapon range as part of the factor in costing a unit. So things will cost more. So that means that all the scenarios need looking at for balance purposes, the iuser campaigns where the designer has allowed say 300 buy points for the user to buy a specific rifle coy (say) will need that factored in and rebuilt.

Altogether, he is really asking for another game than this one. He may well be better suited going and trying something else that's out there that does small unit tactics at a finer scale - say combat mission of firefight (http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/ff.html).

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hi Felix
The impot function is a very commonly used, straightforward, methods of importing large lumps of data into files in this case from a spreadsheet into the OOB files I'm surprised the Designers cant get it to work. Secretaries in Offices manage to do it.

1. Because if you doubled the map sizes as well you haven't changed anything if you double the ranges and leave the map as is this -effectively- makes the map hexes half size, 25m. Map hexes actually don't have a size, there size is derived from weapon range, and turn length is derived from how many hexes a unit can travel in a turn.
Unfortuneately the two measures don't match. Doubling the range brings the two measures into line. With many many added bonus's Ive listed already.

2. Doubling ranges -effectively- doubles the ROF because even though the units travel the same number of hexes per turn, and units fire the same amount of shots per turn, Th critical difference is that fired upon units are now in range for twice as many hexes.
The game "plays" exactly the same Felix. please try one of the scenarois, you wont be dissapointed.

3. Units move the same number of hexes per turn with ranges doubled.

I am not trying to change the game to suit myself. I am trying to help make the game more realistic, This change does that in spades. Because units currently attract only half the fire they should defence is severely underrated in the game.

before you decide who as you say "DO NOT" want these changes they should try the scenarios I supplied, ****the playing experience remains unchanged****.
Please try a scenario before you make such comments.

Yes the wilderness, There is no one else speaking up because of the intimidating tone set in this forum frightens people into silence. Have you noticed the kicking I get on a regular basis this is called setting an example to stop anyone else having any ideas. When they disresect me they are disrespecting every member of this forum. Thats you Felix.

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hi DRG
Thanks for considering my suggestion I'm happy that my idea has been discussed and I'm happy that you are not implementing it. I would point out to you that making suggestions about how the game could be improved does not mean I don't like the game.
No, I am not expecting you to make 25000 clicks. Frankly I am gobsmacked that you designers haven't retained the ability to import the data into the OOBs using a csv file out of an excel spreadsheet for yourselves. It's childsplay for a programmer. I can see that the function would be a
problem for users that are careless, but if you are careful in the spreadsheet not to introduce extra or inappropriate characters into the fields it doesn't present any problems. I feel very sorry for you having had to have done all that unnecessary work that could have been done so much easier straight into a spreadsheet, no wonder you are fatigued.

I mentioned earlier WW2_APCalc.exe would need to be tweeked, I haven't looked into that but it already has the correct penetrations at the correct ranges so I imagine it would be a matter of substituting in two columns when there are now one, not too difficult I imagine.

As far as long range artillery goes, I'm not sure why you cant just say its "not 9500 now its 4750"? would you not just say any gun with 4750 or better range gets 4750 (direct fire) range? as that would be the maximum size of the map anyway? And that for ranges over 199 the values would just need to be evenly divided up into the ranges from 475k to 64.4k instead of from 9.5k to 64.4
just to be clear I am not suggesting any changes to WINSPMBT,
Unfortunately I like your game most sorry for that.

Mobhack
Artillery blast is way overdone in the game already, there is no need to keep the current blast circle areas it could be left as is with the 25m hexes and they would still be overdone. So no need to change warhead sizes or eat any spagetti. Have a look at some reputable sites like
http://nigelef.tripod.com/index.htm
I've already demonstrated that artillery suppression is 62 times more effective in game than in reality. Blast zone effects are similarly grossly overdone. Artillery modelling is one of the weakest aspects of the game.

I though you might have spotted this yourself but I'll point it out for you as you missed it, You just need to halve the value of ranges in the cost calculator and it stays the same? So no need to look at the scenarios etc. or redesign any games.

I'm happy to have established that range doubling is indeed an excellent Idea but that the work load to implement it is too high thank you for your time. c'est la vie eh?

[DRG]

The only place you have established that range doubling "is indeed an excellent Idea" is in your own mind and any thought that you have done so with us but we think "the work load to implement it is too high" is also in your own mind.

[Felix Nephthys]

Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik

Hi Felix
The impot function is a very commonly used, straightforward, methods of importing large lumps of data into files in this case from a spreadsheet into the OOB files I'm surprised the Designers cant get it to work. Secretaries in Offices manage to do it.

1. Because if you doubled the map sizes as well you haven't changed anything if you double the ranges and leave the map as is this -effectively- makes the map hexes half size, 25m. Map hexes actually don't have a size, there size is derived from weapon range, and turn length is derived from how many hexes a unit can travel in a turn.
Unfortuneately the two measures don't match. Doubling the range brings the two measures into line. With many many added bonus's Ive listed already.

2. Doubling ranges -effectively- doubles the ROF because even though the units travel the same number of hexes per turn, and units fire the same amount of shots per turn, Th critical difference is that fired upon units are now in range for twice as many hexes.
The game "plays" exactly the same Felix. please try one of the scenarois, you wont be dissapointed.

3. Units move the same number of hexes per turn with ranges doubled.

I am not trying to change the game to suit myself. I am trying to help make the game more realistic, This change does that in spades. Because units currently attract only half the fire they should defence is severely underrated in the game.

before you decide who as you say "DO NOT" want these changes they should try the scenarios I supplied, ****the playing experience remains unchanged****.
Please try a scenario before you make such comments.

Yes the wilderness, There is no one else speaking up because of the intimidating tone set in this forum frightens people into silence. Have you noticed the kicking I get on a regular basis this is called setting an example to stop anyone else having any ideas. When they disresect me they are disrespecting every member of this forum. Thats you Felix.

1. If you double the weapon range, you need to double the size of the map to get the same area that there is now, that doesn't seem like a strange concept to me.

2. Don't you just want twice the chances to hit? You said yourself that defense is severely underrated in the game, to which I would say that you can adjust the values in the preferences to be able to play how you want.

3. So units now effectively would move at half the speed that they already do.

As for deciding who want these changes or not, I have never done that, it's you who wants to make that decision for all other players. Also, if disrespect towards you and everyone else on this forum is defined as not bowing to your way of thinking then I am guilty as charged. That being said, this is all a moot point anyways for the exact reasons given by DRG and Mobhack and since you've already "declared victory",

I'm happy to have established that range doubling is indeed an excellent Idea but that the work load to implement it is too high thank you for your time. c'est la vie eh?

I'm just gonna pull a Pontius Pilate and wash my hands of this, you do whatever you want.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Felix Nephthys

I'm just gonna pull a Pontius Pilate and wash my hands of this, you do whatever you want.

Basically, that sems to be the best policy for this particular poster since he does not seem to be interested in any other point of view other than his own.

As he has been told before, we are not going to implement his ideas in the game. Not interested in the slightest for reasons as stated before.

Now he is perfectly free to post his own modified OOBs in the mods forums, but all he has done is a couple of OOBs that work with 1 or 2 particular scenarios.

Those have been downloaded by about 9 people and with no feedback plus or minus. If these were seen by the downloaders as the "bestest thing since sliced bread" then someone would have piped up by now in support of Quicky - but none have, so you can draw your own conclusions.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I was getting "flashbacks" from a "former" member of the SPMBT Forum. I try not to comment much in here, as I'm too busy in the other, however, since I paid for this game as well, I like to look in once in awhile.

This was insanity to me, I'm not a software/programmer kind've guy but, with that being said, I can certainly "read between the lines" and I saw an OOB Equipment "train wreck" on the horizon.

For one thing there is no time to be side tracked I what see as a misadventure.

We have 5 years to get both these games into the best possible shape we can.

I feel with the conversion to Win that Andy and Don might still be able to pull a "rabbit out of the hat" and "tweak" the code a little more out of the engine.

And with the OOB's we have more work then we know, as I've been finding out these last few years just in fixing "legacy" issues, let alone keeping up on current and future "current" equipment that might "see the light of day".

I respect the "passion" I've driven Don "mad" enough with both meanings of that word with mine. But I feel I've always been able to see the "bigger picture" in the end. In my small part out here is to provide the most accurate details I can to get any said equipment entered, modified or deleted to benefit the player.

I hope you noticed my choice for the "last word" in the last sentence.

As suggested modify it the way you want, offer it to the players and get the players feedback from it and be flexible enough to listen and adjust your mod as necessary.

But with respect, I submit in the "big picture" and the time constraints that we're under, I can't see it or support it, because for me I don't have the time for that kind've OOB work.

After all it's all about "OW/O/OOB" because the world's a big place!

I'll be going back across the street now!

We need more ME-G-MOES how about a Submarine one, can we at least do that around here!?!

Regards,
Pat

[Kiwikkiwik]

Hi Fastboat tough,
Fantastic post! I didn't quite understand all of it, but it was certainly exhilarating reading.

Mobhack you keep telling me to make my own mod, But that's not possible. Mobhack in this instance is not fit for purpose because you won't allow it to have the excell spreadsheet import function. It is clearly too much work to do it unit by unit.

Felix the Idea I have is to make the hex size 25m instead of 50m I think everyone agrees that this game would play better with 25m hexes

1. I don't see there is any need to keep the same map area?
What I'm saying is that you can make the game hexes 25m by doubling all the ranges, simple as that. If you double the ranges map area stays the same in Hexes (The same number of hexes). But becomes one quarter its current size in Kilometers (because the hexes are 25m instead of 50m). You don't have to touch the map to make the map hexes 25m.

2. No I don't just want twice the chance to hit, I would like 25m map hexes.
having 25m map hexes solves the mismatch between distance moved and ROF. That's a big deal.
This mismatch makes defence underrated. I have just listed fixing this discrepancy as an advantage to doubling ranges not because I myself want defense to be more deadly. But I would like it to match reality better which it would.

3. No, units would move at the same speed they do now, but doubling ranges makes turn length half, so they have only half the time to move at the same speed so they move for only half the time they had before. So sort of the same thing, but they still move the same amount of hexes per turn, and ROF per turn is also unchanged.

[Mobhack]

Kwicki

Which part of

That just aint gonna happen.

In the post above do you not get?

We are NOT going to do it, just because one person with a particular bee in thier bonnet wants it to happen.

Now, please stop bothering us about it. It's getting beyond tedious.

[Anton]

I fear increased ranges will make the game slower, more boring, and much harder for the attacking side, which will now have to cover twice the distance under enemy fire.