Starting tactics

[Karibu]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Originally posted by se5a:
but somoen else might get it, I still dont see the resoning behind going for a small one when you can have a big one.
whats 1 building space, the big one will eventualy build faster anyway due to more population wont it?

Eventually, yes. But, you are not concerned with eventually, but doing as much as you can in the short term. The small world is only going to build the SY to build colony ships. The big world you will want to build miners and such on first, which only take 1 turn. Spaceports only take 3 turns, and do not get built any faster unless you have at least 50% bonus to construction from pop and racial bonuses with a level one SY.

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I disagree this with you Fyron. I always build SY first on the big planet at the beginning. Why? In first 40 turns you don't have mineral/rad shortage so you can make SY and build colonyships in big planets during that period. When you are running low on resources, start making mines, etc. in there. Also SY helps if you need to get WP:s or satellites fast when enemy is on sight.

I know that building SY on every planet slows you a little bit down, but only temporarily. After 5 or 6 colonized planets, you have superior manufacturing base compared to any player who has not made SY's on every planet. The bad point in this is, that your science and resource production suffers because of this at first 30 or 40 turns, but you will catch others by turn 50...70 because you crabbed many planets by making so many colonyships with your many spaceyards.

Furthermore, I usually colonize only nearest planet in my home system and breathables if there is any (1-3 colonized planets before leaving system). Then I go and colonize 1 or 2 planets in avery system I encounter to spread as much as possible and lay claim into those systems.

[ November 28, 2003, 07:24: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[primitive]

To be honest, I often colonize the big breathable at the same time (or earlier) than the SY planet. But I never waste time on building a SY (or space port) first on a BB, always going straight for resource or research facilities (only exception would be a small minefield).

Small Example:
Huge breathable wanted for research. You have advanced storage tech and decent research bonus (lets use 700 points pr research facility). Difference between building 29 Researh facilities first and then the shipyard and building SY first and then the research facilities (Total buildtime 34 turns).

Difference in research points produced by turn 34: 101 500 Points
Every turn wasted on building defences, colonizers or whatever before starting the facilities: Another 20 300 points down the drain.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Sure you can, only my way is faster

Not really.

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You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age.

Do the math, its no contest. Every BSY built during the first 10 turns will set you back compared to the “fastest” model. You will have a more compact and secure empire, I’ll give you that. But it will be significantly smaller at turn 30 - 40.

If you don’t want to do the math, I’ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.

[Karibu]

Originally posted by primitive:
Small Example:
Huge breathable wanted for research. You have advanced storage tech and decent research bonus (lets use 700 points pr research facility). Difference between building 29 Researh facilities first and then the shipyard and building SY first and then the research facilities (Total buildtime 34 turns).

Difference in research points produced by turn 34: 101 500 Points
Every turn wasted on building defences, colonizers or whatever before starting the facilities: Another 20 300 points down the drain.

That would be wise if you could colonize only that one planet. Consider this:

Turn 8:
Player n 1
Has SY (5 turns) and a colonyship (3 turns)

Player n 2
Has 8 research facilities

Turn 10:
Player n 1
Has 1 SY and 2 research facilities (2 turns) and second planet is colonized

Player n 2
Has 10 research facilities

Turn 20:
Player n 1
Has 1 SY and 22 research facilities (12 in planet A and 10 in planet B)

Player n 2
Has 20 research facilities

Yes, I know things are not this simple, but you get the point. Negleting research at first will expose you fast take over but pays back later with greater industrial base. And greater research.

I would accumulate this up so that you make at least 5 SY's at first 5 planets and then you start building other than SY or colonyships. Risky but pays off if you survive over that period.

[ November 28, 2003, 10:26: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[primitive]

I think you misunderstood me

Going for fastest possible expansion needs a lot of SY capacity. My point is: Put your SYs on small planets/moons (first) and don’t waste time building facilities on your valuable planets.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by primitive:
You are more stubborn than an old grumbler thrice your age.

Took you a long time to notice

[spoon]

Originally posted by primitive:

If you don’t want to do the math

Two players: player 1 builds only colony ships. Player 2 builds two BSY's. First BSY is set to emergency build for more BSY's. Second BSY is set to emergency build colony ships

Turn 5
P1: 5 colony ships
P2: 4 colony ships, 3 BSYs

Turn 11 (homeworld now on slow build):
P1: 10 colony ships
P2: 15 colony ships, 5 BSYs

Player one might have up to 2 more colony ships at this time, depending where he sent his first few colony ships

Originally posted by primitive:

I’ll be happy to challenge you (or anyone else believing in the BSY model) to an empire building contest.

How much money do you want to put on it?

[rextorres]

I always build at least one BSY on my starting planet and then set that to e-build whatever. This strategy has never let me down.

[ November 28, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: rextorres ]

[Roanon]

Originally posted by rextorres:
This strategy has never let me down.

Means you never have lost a game?
Or means that it worked better than any other strategey *you* could think of?

Clinging to the same old ideas just because they "have always worked" has been the most common reason for empires / armies / companies / whatever to fail for centuries...

[rextorres]

In my experience spoon's strategy is the best for the first 10 turns - If you use any other you've put yourself at a disadvantage. Now as for the rest of the game there are so many factors that come in to play that of course it's not a guarantee to victory.

[ November 28, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: rextorres ]