Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had).

IIRC, the Myrmidons in Greek myth were a Groups of soldiers who were turned into humans from ants (hence the "Myr" prefix). This would explain their extremely good morale and discipline.

I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks. I think a strategy would be to have myrmidon stand in front of the battle with attack closest, while chariots in the back hold and attack. The myrmidon fight enemy infantry to a standstill, since they are powerful defensively that way and still have crap attacks.

An increase in morale would be good, but 50 is far too high. That is Mindless level, IIRC. I can't recall any normal troops that have morale higher than 15. Giving them a 14 or 15 morale I think would be just as good as 50, and be believable.

When the chariots move out, they get to make their attack before the enemy could respond, since this is a turnbased game and they've already wasted a round of swings on your rock hard myrmidon.

I don't use Chariots, so I don't know how to evaluate this.

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?

Not particularly. It does make them extremely powerful against troops in general, though. When you consider they have _3_ attacks, and they fly, a Fire blessing in particular sounds like it would be devastating. IME, they are, if deployed in enough numbers (say, 10+). You could use a Moloch with your starting troops to take out provinces until they come on-line. It sounds like a beginning strategy to me.

[Norfleet]

If you gave them 50 morale, they would also dissolve when they lost their commander.

Originally posted by Blitz:
You are definately right about awe having diminishing returns, but as you know it's incredibly powerful against independants and many nationals. I'm playing a game in another window now and my small group of 4 wind lords are doing very well in early expansion. Without awe they die far too easily for a 125 gold unit.

As I've thought about it more (as work grinds on) I have come up with the conclusion that Wind Riders would benefit from:

Round Shield -> Kite Shield (+1 Prot, +1 Def, Harder to nail with Missile Weapons)
Hit Points 13 -> 15 (Based on Knights)
Strength 11 -> 12 (Again Based on Knights)

This, IMO makes them more in line with the rest of the units (Knights Mostly). Would I buy them now? Probably not. But they are slightly more survivable.

And you are definately right about the Wind Lord resembling Vans (and Tuatha), but if you are going to give them magic, but not air... then what? After all, it's a Wind Lord =). I'm not sure any of the other paths would be appropriate for thematic reasons. The new lords are pretty damn impressive. I've only recruited one, and he's easily as good as a Vanadrott... but obviously a Hangadrott (with soul vortex), or Tuatha (regeneration, elemental fortitude) is going to be better at the same price. The WL does fly with a lance and awe, however. I was hesitant to make him as powerful as either of the existing air SC's, and purposely overcosted him in relation.

I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Maybe the Icarian Commander should have 2 Earth?

[Blitz]

This, IMO makes them more in line with the rest of the units (Knights Mostly). Would I buy them now? Probably not. But they are slightly more survivable.

I understand the concept of taking baby steps in a mod, and not completely changing the way the theme plays... but I wasn't really going for slightly more survivable. I'd really like to bring the wind riders up to their comparably costed peers (Neifel Giant, Black hunter). I like the kite shield idea, but it's a little like giving the myrmidions broad swords. Is it play balanced? Probably. But there weren't broad swords back in ancient greece, and things like that are important to the developers. We've seen lots of examples where play balance was sacrificed for cosmetic or accuracy reasons. I'd like to keep the weaponry and armor as is, and look at other ways to improve the units.

I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'.

Aside from the similarities to drotts, there's also a very important balancing concern. In the game I've been running all day, I've pretty well stopped making any units aside from Wind Lords. They are everywhere, with flying and cloud trapeeze. They don't seem to die when given even the simplest gear (I gave most of them luck pendant and barkskin amulet). Even at 400 gold, it's probably too powerful a unit to include in the mod, which is too bad as I've become quite fond of them. The issue of the synergy between a recruitable SC and the power of the priestess is also a little troubling.

What would you think of giving them both air and earth level 1? Obviously this allows both ironskin and mirror image, but not mistform and cloud trapeeze. It's similar, but different than Drotts and Tuathas.

I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Maybe the Icarian Commander should have 2 Earth?

Well you would have to raise his cost considerably, as he'd be a pretty solid little SC in his own right (summon earthpower/ironskin/attack rear). There is also the possibility of modding either the Skeptic or Engineer. Giving engineers EEE would really open up the construction summons, and you'd have a lot easier access to mechanical men and the like. Of course you could argue that this too is too Vanheimish I guess. It would also solve the very annoying problem of engineers always being active when you use the (N)ext commander hotkey.

There's definately a lot you can do with the skeptic and engineer within the bounds of the mod. Both look reasonably mage-like, and changing the name and stats is trivial. Unfortunately we're never going to get more than 2 people to agree on what such hypothetical mage should look like, but I'm open to suggestions.

Originally posted by Blitz:
I understand the concept of taking baby steps in a mod, and not completely changing the way the theme plays... but I wasn't really going for slightly more survivable. I'd really like to bring the wind riders up to their comparably costed peers (Neifel Giant, Black hunter). I like the kite shield idea, but it's a little like giving the myrmidions broad swords. Is it play balanced? Probably. But there weren't broad swords back in ancient greece, and things like that are important to the developers. We've seen lots of examples where play balance was sacrificed for cosmetic or accuracy reasons. I'd like to keep the weaponry and armor as is, and look at other ways to improve the units.

You can't compare them to Niefel Giants, even though they are comparable costwise. Why? Because Giants and Niefelhiem in particular are built that way and they need the survivability of the Niefel Giant (Even though they are not build very frequently). Black Hunters run into a different issue. If they didn't have Sacred Black Spiders when they died, they wouldn't be in the same class as 'cost-effectiveness'. And neither Niefels nor Black Spiders can fly, thus the flying unit has to be weaker because of the huge advantage of flying both tactically and strategically.

If you don't like changing the weaponry, then you can just modify the base stats. This isn't going to help against missiles, but maybe that is okay

HP 13 > 15
Defense 14 (base) > 15 (Total Defense 17)
Strength 11 > 12
Cost 125 > 115 Gold

Now. Those again are minor changes. But lets see the impact as the game progresses:

Protection (the spell) = 23 Prot
5 Stars Exp = 22 Defense (nothing to sneeze at)

Now they may be worth it, if equipped with a decent blessing. And at least some small form of Air is probabaly key for initial expansion.

The issue of the synergy between a recruitable SC and the power of the priestess is also a little troubling.

This is exactly why you wouldn't want to. Imagine having Neifel Jarls with Arco? Not pretty, which is exactly what you are promoting here.

What would you think of giving them both air and earth level 1? Obviously this allows both ironskin and mirror image, but not mistform and cloud trapeeze. It's similar, but different than Drotts and Tuathas.

Quite honestly I wouldn't want to kill diversity so very much. Just give the exact changes that I gave to the normal Wind Lord to the commander and he'd still be fine. Having magic casting power on a mounted unit is great, but I don't think it should be given to flying mounted commanders.

Well you would have to raise his cost considerably, as he'd be a pretty solid little SC in his own right (summon earthpower/ironskin/attack rear).

The more I thought about it, the less I liked it. What I ended up thinking would be good for Icarian's (and commanders) is giving them a Javelin. Suddenly you have a Air mobile missile squad. It makes their quick strike capability enough that you would consider using them for their fragility (also gives them time to soften up their opponents before they get slaughtered).

There's definately a lot you can do with the skeptic and engineer within the bounds of the mod. Both look reasonably mage-like, and changing the name and stats is trivial. Unfortunately we're never going to get more than 2 people to agree on what such hypothetical mage should look like, but I'm open to suggestions.

If you could unrestrict the philosopher from the capital they would be fine. And have the engineer given either a Forge bonus (Cruel fate, no magic but can forge well. Hello Forge of the Ancients) and perhaps a Bonus to Alchemy akin to an Alchemist.

It wouldn't make the Skeptic any more attractive, but I think he's fine as he is, even with crappy stealth.

[Endoperez]

Shedu was dramatically increased. I'd like to read your comments on it too. The ones about Golden Age were a nice read, but I can't comment them. I'm not experienced enough to see how good a unit is without testing it in battle first.

[HotNifeThruButr]

I know myrmidon are just (the "just" part, more or less) ant people, but I think they're also supposed to be the ultimate soldiers in terms of discipline. I mean, they're crazy, you tell one of them to fight the whole Abysian army, and he'll be out there. You tell on to jump, he asks you how high, what angle, and whether or not to take wind resistance into account.

I thought it could be something unique about myrmidon, to set them apart from all the other elite, slow infantry.

Just a thought.

"myrmidon A faithful follower who carries out orders without question." - Dictionary.com

[Blitz]

Shedu was dramatically increased. I'd like to read your comments on it too. The ones about Golden Age were a nice read, but I can't comment them. I'm not experienced enough to see how good a unit is without testing it in battle first.

Well the main limitation of the Shedu remains... that you only get head and 2 misc slots. In order to make him into a viable SC choice you have to take 5 more levels of astral (to combat magic deul), then at least level 3 earth. He can't use any lifedrain weapons, and as a trampler they aren't too useful anyway. He'll never be able to wear boots of quickness or jade armor, so if you want him hasted you need to pay 80 design points for water 1. He's never going to be a world-class SC, so increasing his combat statistics really only enhance his value as an early-game trampling expander.

The armor bonus is redundant with stoneskin, which is available early, and castable with his base chassis. The defense value is definately big, as is boosting his domain to the highest level. However, I doubt these abilities offset the drawbacks of less equipment slots.

In comparison, the Virtue...

- Has the same path cost, and costs 75 points less.
- She (now) has the same dominion, as well as two excellent abilities (lightning resistance/Awe 4!!).
- She only has level 2 air, rather than two paths, but this since he's 75 points cheaper on an 80-point chassis, getting a second path (of your choice mind you) costs you only 5 points more than what you would have to pay for a Shedu.
- She has a full compliment of equipment slots, and comes standard with a nice flambeau

On the flip side the Shedu is a beast at 230 hit points. However, I think you would find him to be limited as a lategame combat SC... however I think he would do quite well as a caster SC, similar to a monolith. When you compare him to other (non crappy) national pretenders, I think he's still strictly second-tier. The Nataraja is clearly superior (and available to Arcoscophale). The Allfather (at the same cost mind you) is clearly superior. The Carrion Dragon (50 points), is in another class. Now he may be comparable to other national choices such as the Jade Emperor or Mother of Tuathas, two similarily priced national pretenders.

However, by maintaining his 80-point paths and limited item slot compliment, it's almost certian that he'll never completely excel at either fighting or casting. At this point he'll make a good expansion aid for the first few turns, then probably retire to the library to make golems... showing up to cast a few big spells in the more important battles. I actually considered lowering his price (to 50), or his path cost (to 40) in addition to raising his combat values. Limiting his item slots has a crippling effect on his overall usefulness... given these severe restrictions on usable items, he has to be great in other areas. Maybe filling the "early trampler, lategame golem maker" niche will be enough... but somehow I doubt it =).

I'm open to suggestions on how to make him somewhat on par with the better avatars available to Arcoscephale... namely the Virtue, Nataraja, Lady of Fortune, Prince of Death, and Ghost King. Since Arcoscephale has access to all of the non-unique avatars that I consider in the top tier... you have to make the Shedu one of the best pretender gods in the game, or else regardless of his strength he's not going to be used since Arcoscephale has such diverse choices in this area. How to accomplish that while maintaining the general idea Illwinter had for the Shedu (trampling flier, limited magic, no item slots), is the question. He was already the highest hit point, non immobile pretender in the game (tied with the kraken, which was aquatic and of course dosen't fly). Even as a flying, durable, trampling chassis with magical paths in both astral and earth, he saw limited or no use. This speaks volumes about the power of items in this game.

[ June 18, 2004, 13:24: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[PvK]

Seems to me that there are some nations and units and tactics that are harder to learn to take advantage of than others, but that once they're learned, they are just as good, or better, compared to the easy and obvious nations/units/tactics.

Myrmidons don't look bad to me at all. They look quite good, really, as slow well-armored heavy infantry with not so heavy weapons.

Those look like the most durable chariots I've ever seen. Most chariots are very fragile, but are good for inducing panic in the rear. Most chariots aren't designed to be shock troops, although as was pointed out, with buffs, GE chariots could be quite strong.

The flying warriors are probably like most flying units - easy to get killed, but deadly if used in sufficient numbers and timed properly.

Yes, the Shedu can fatigue out and be swarmed to death, and becomes weaker in comparison to late game units. And the astral is a two-sided ability due to magic duels. I'd say it's a dang good thing those weaknesses are there, however! Remember what I said about numbers being important to rear-flyers? Try combining a flying shedu with a whole bunch of flying troops set to guard commander... suddenly it's much much much harder to overwhelm the shedu or calmly deal with the fliers. Try to strike the shedu before it buffs up with astral and other spells? Good luck with a bunch of fliers guarding him while he does so!

Meanwhile, the research bonus, the mages, the skeptics, the healers, etc., are also great things that can really help out when used well.

If there are several players who haven't figured out how to use something effectively, by all means try mods to make them better. But with players who know how to use the old Versions, they may end up being overpowered, and after the players who didn't know, get some experience, they may start to learn the subtler tricks too.

It's at that point that the mod changes to remove things that got the units killed when they were used bluntly, may end up with units that have too few weaknesses when used skillfully.

I don't claim to have figured everything out, or to have much GE Arco experience or anything. I have done a bit with fliers though and have seen them be extremely powerful or extremely weak, hinging mostly on numbers and timing. When I see people saying they think tough fliers are too weak, I tend to think they probably saw them strike with too few and at the wrong time or against the wrong target. Fliers who can do well even when sent in low numbers against strong foes at the wrong time, seem like they could be too strong.

PvK

[Stormbinder]

Without geting deeper into the arguments, I would like to say that I agree with Blitz's assesment that GE in general is weaker than the standart Arco in cometitive MP. A pity, because I think this is one of the most interesing national themes in priciple. Maybe it'll get some love from devs in the future, as Blood of humans and other themes got in the past.

[ June 19, 2004, 01:46: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]