Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Amonchakad]

I've taken just a quick look at this for now, but it looks *great*. Awesome job, llama!

Just a small suggestion that came to my mind: perhaps modify the description of fully grown wendigos to specify that they are completely grown, so the player is aware of that and won't wait for them to grow any bigger

[Stavis_L]

Is the wendigo supposed to actually change in size during the form progression? The hitpoints increase, but the size doesn't appear to increase (it starts at size 6 per the Son of the Fallen it's copystatted from, and stays that way.)

[LDiCesare]

Balance ideas:
I think treants are too strong right now. Considering treelords are just one research level below (Ench 7, I'm using CBM), I think treants are too strong. Treelords are more expensive (40 vs 35), slightly easier to research (Ench 7 vs Ench 8), can't move, are better N mages but you already have good N mages to summon them in the first place, can't move, have terrible att/def, less attacks, can't move but can summon lots of vine ogres and the like. They also have 2 pitiful misc slots vs. the treant's many. I can't see why anyone would spend 40 gems summoning an immobile tree when he could wait a bit more and summon a treant. Of course, ench 7/8 is a big step, but I'd rather have the treant Ench 9 so they don't totally obsolete the treelords. Maybe the comparison between lords and ants is flawed because, apart from being trees, they have very different gameplay, but I think it's valid.

Same remark for the Asynja and Cyclops: They're Conj 8. Why research Conj 9 + Thau 4 for tartarians? Tarts are harder to summon, slightly less expensive, often riddled with feeblemind, afflicted like noone else, can't even heal properly, burn down your temples, pillage the province you just teleported them into, and are pretty random. Asynja and cyclops just obsolete tartarians rather than replace them. The only good thing left for tarts is their 0 enc. which frees some slots. But then cyclops don't really need the body slot, so rainbow armors are almost a given for them (mr + reinvig, don't care much about protection).

Ember lords are cool but the base attack may be slightly exaggerated? I mean they get a bonus from fire magic, and heat power means they're going to be even better in warm places.

Grendelkins are ok, but I wonder whether they should be poor amphibians? It would make sense thematically. They aren't spell casters, so can't auto-buff, so I think given the paths needed and the price they are probably one of the most balanced high level summons.

[llamabeast]

Thanks for all the comments everyone, and for the kind compliments.

rdonj: I'd be interested if you still reckon the grendelkin is overpowered after playtesting. He's undoubtedly ridiculously fearsome, but then again he has no magic. Is he really better than a Tartarian? I could be persuaded to make him more expensive, but probably not to make him weaker. I want them to be the kind of thing where you think "Oh, no, my opponent's got a grendelkin! How on earth am I going to take him down?", but where the opponent has had to make some effort to get there. Same for the Ember Lord. So maybe he should be more expensive. Opinions welcome.

Raiel: Wild Ettin being cheaper - seems sensible actually. I wouldn't mind if they became common, they're not desperately powerful without kit. Maybe 18 gems or something. The shishis were originally 0 enc, but I got rid of it on thematic grounds in the end - I wanted to emphasise that they're not really statues, they are living spirits which just happen to be aligned to air and made of stone. I don't think the firebird should have phoenix pyre - he just happens to look like a phoenix. The Russian myth was very bright and very lucky, but not immortal.

Jarkko: I can't understand your comment unfortunately. Are you saying they should be cheaper or more expensive?

Gandalf: Yes, dragons would be cool. It was that thought that led me to put the Zmey in actually, since I thought it would be a bit less generic than just sticking the other dragons in. I'm not sure whether I really want to add many more units though. I mean, at a stroke we've gone from just Tartarians to quite a few choices, it might be a bit much to have too many more choices in. Or at least, let's see how MP goes with these choices first. Though it would be very exciting to have all sorts of weird, wonderful and powerful beasties around in the late game, fighting each other.

LDiCesare: The trouble with the Shedu is I think it looks funny.

Gandalf again: I think that thing with #unique would probably work actually.

LDiCesare again: It'll be interesting to see what people do with the Mechanical Giant. On the one hand he's kind of feeble in some ways. On the other hand he has high protection and immunity to all elements, so you're free to use his other slots quite creatively. I think they may never be true SCs but I bet people can make very nasty thugs out of them.

Frozen Lama: Good suggestion.

Amonchakad: Good thought.

Stavis_L: Well spotted! That's the first bug report. Doubtless they'll be countless more. Yes, he's meant to start at size 2 and increase to size 6.

LDiCesare: This is a helpful post, thanks.

I think comparing the Treant to the Treelord is not quite right, because the Treelord is absolutely awful. I think the better approach would be: are nature nations going to be overpowered versus death nations now? Will Tartarians be able to kill these Treants? I think the Treant is still probably weaker than a decent Tartarian, but I could be wrong.

Do you really think the Asnyja and Cyclops are better than Tartarians? Maybe I've inflated how powerful Tartarians are in my head. I actually thought the Asynja and Cyclops were a bit underwhelming. I certainly don't want to obsolete Tartarians. Tartarians should still be basically the most powerful SCs in the game, with the possible exception of Ember Lords and Grendelkin (I hope those three are roughly equal in power).

I'll have a look at the Ember Lord's attack.

Grendelkin were originally poor amphibians. But I imagine them living a Gollum-like life - they're in the dark, crouching in pools, always in the water - but they can't actually breathe in the sea.

[llamabeast]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Roc? It is possible that he is a bit useless. But then I tried to give him some interesting stuff - A3, map move 5, big bonuses to patrol and sieging. So I am optimistic that he may be effective in some niches. He can definitely take PD down.

[rdonj]

Llamabeast: I don't think grendelkin are as good as tartarians, no. They are not as versatile or do as much for you. BUT I think that, given their stats, it seems likely that your average grendelkin with a holy scourge and maybe some other minor gear should be able to wreck 90% of all tartarians. Naked they're already good enough to kill anything resembling a reasonable level of PD. Geared they should be some of the best SC-killers in the game, despite their lack of magic. I haven't really gotten a chance to play with them much yet, aside from knocking over some independent provinces in a test game. But I can easily see them shining.

The Asynja and Cyclops are nowhere near tartarians in ability. They're capable SCs, but they have nothing on tartarians for either magic or power level. They will definitely not render tartarians obsolete.

I agree on the treelord treant comparison. Treelords suck, they serve almost no actual purpose in the game. Treants are designed to actually be useful, so of course they are better than treelords . I also agree that treants are weaker than tartarians, though they do certainly have potential.

The ember lord may have a really high base attack, but right now it's not nearly as good as it looks like. He's losing 7 of it from lack of ambidexterity with his length 5 whip and length 2 maw. He does have a lot of attack skill though, enough so that nothing is really safe from him if that malus goes away. He's pretty comparable to tartarians I'd say, with some nice built in abilities that pretty well justify his expense. Not as good magically still, but a very good option nonetheless.

The mechanical giant is kind of meh imo. They're more or less fine... except for their magic resistance. You would have to completely load them down in mr gear for them to be usable at the current price, or else you are just asking to have them controlled away. They're also constructs, so there are plenty of nasty effects to choose from when trying to deal with them. All in all I think these are just overpriced. I think they would be better off priced similarly to the shishi (which are supremely cool by the way).

I also think the wendigo could use a bit of a price decrease, given that it takes time for it to come into power. How much of one I'm not sure. Maybe try 25 gems?

The roc is kind of an interesting one. It doesn't have great stats, but it should be enough for most PD raiding. It should also be able to kill thugs reasonably between high damage adn multiple attacks. And the siege and patrol bonuses give them useful things to do when they're not raiding. I can definitely see them being very useful. The true firebird is definitely the most niche summon. Solar brilliance can be nice, but hard to use and other than that the firebird is not that interesting in battle.

[Trumanator]

I would think that the maw attack on the bal.. I mean Ember Lord should be #bonus? Mostly I agree with rdonj though, except that he forgot that the wendigo is obviously intended to be the winedigo.

[Frozen Lama]

based on preliminary looks, the roc seems like he is pretty good. since he's only 25 gems, and A gems at that, he is a pretty cost effective raider and hits where you don't expect him

[Raiel]

Originally Posted by Frozen Lama

based on preliminary looks, the roc seems like he is pretty good. since he's only 25 gems, and A gems at that, he is a pretty cost effective raider and hits where you don't expect him

I'm really unsure whether or not I agree with this... the Roc does a lot of things well (patrolling, seiging, un-kitted raiding), but he'll rarely be purchased to fill all of those roles, right? So in effect, you might be paying 25 gems just to get that siege bonus or a raider.

In vanilla, this would be fine, but when we compare the Roc to the Aesir, well... I'll just be saving up another 10 gems before I spend them, thanks.

If the price was about half that of the Aesir it would feel like a tougher descision. Alternatively, Conjuration 5 would make that a moot point for a few turns - it would instead be a matter of weighing immediate needs against the future advantage an SC like the Aesir will bring.

[LumenPlacidum]

A question, purely thematic in nature: Why doesn't the Aesir have glamour?