Torpedo question

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot.

Actually being faster isn't a guarantee of firing first. It does increase your chances, but depending on the difference in speed and the range at the begining of combat it is possible for the slower ship, even a ship with shorter range weapons to get off the first shot. Although, the greater the differance in speed and weapons range the less likely this is to happen.

Geoschmo

[Maerlyn]

I just had a discussion about this with a friend of mine, and we both believe that torpedos are stronger than PPB (as long as there are no shields to be counted in) because they deal the same damage as the PPB deals in two rounds at once. this means they will be faster in destroying components, and therefor will be faster in destroying enemy weapons. even their increased size doesnt really metter. but the main problem we see is:

if you play low tech lvl with high tech cost a lvl 5 PPB will cost 525 000 tech points (including physics 1+2) to be ressearched, a lvl 5 quantum torpedo costs 1 975 000 tech points (including military science lvl 1). now this is a HUGE differens, which makes PPBs far better even without the effect that they ignore normal shields!

[DeadDireWolf]

But do any of you guys actually use torpedoes?

Maerlyn - that's what I've noticed and I've only been playing the game a short time. You invest in an applied science (I forget which) for 50K, them you have to research Torpedo Lv I, for a total cost of 55K. But if you just research Lv II cannons, it costs like 5k and you have a weapon that fires the same range, every turn for nearly the same damage (I believe. Still a novice )Weapon to weapon, tech level equal, I can't seem to find any situation yet where I want or need torepoes over anything else. Kinda depressing really, they seem kinda useless.

Atrocites - I read your example below, but do you ever outfit ships with them?

I've obiviously only been playing this game a short time, and it is by far one of the best TBS games I've played. I've got a lot to learn yet.

Sorry, but what does PPB stand for?

[Maerlyn]

Originally posted by DeadDireWolf:
...and it is by far one of the best TBS games I've played.

Sorry, but what does PPB stand for?

yeah, you are right about this. I am playing thuis game for a very short time too, but it is the best TBS game I know so far. (even better than Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri, and this was a very good game already)

PPB means Phased Polaron Beam. A direct fire weapon which skips shields and is available after you've researched physics 2. It is the most popular weapon as far as I know.

[Fyron]

The biggest problem is weapon scale mounts that were introduced in SE4. There were no mounts in SE3. Components just took one hit to be destroyed, and weapons did damages on scales of 3, 5, or occasionally 10. All of this was basically multiplied by 10 in the conVersion to SE4, with some tweaking and some new weapons. BUT, SE3 torpedos had nice to hit bonuses. SE4 torpedos do not. Also, a big advantage of SE3 torpedos was that they could penetrate stuff like emmissive armor (and crystalline in SE4) better because they did more damage per shot. But, with the massive scale mount bonuses in SE4, this advantage is gone, because even a lowly DUC V can penetrate emmissive armor easily (and CA on smaller-medium ships) with a large or heavy mount.

[DeadDireWolf]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The biggest problem is weapon scale mounts that were introduced in SE4. There were no mounts in SE3. Components just took one hit to be destroyed, and weapons did damages on scales of 3, 5, or occasionally 10. All of this was basically multiplied by 10 in the conVersion to SE4, with some tweaking and some new weapons. BUT, SE3 torpedos had nice to hit bonuses. SE4 torpedos do not. Also, a big advantage of SE3 torpedos was that they could penetrate stuff like emmissive armor (and crystalline in SE4) better because they did more damage per shot. But, with the massive scale mount bonuses in SE4, this advantage is gone, because even a lowly DUC V can penetrate emmissive armor easily (and CA on smaller-medium ships) with a large or heavy mount.

Far out. Nobody has addressed this issue in SEIV? Odd, if so. The game has been out for a while and I would have thought someone would have tried to balance the torpedo.

[Fyron]

Not everyone agrees that it is not balanced... and there is no consensus on how to balance it, so it remains. I think there was one change to it in the early days of SE4 though (a patch). There was also one to beef up PPBs, cause apparently they were too weak before.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot.

Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK

[PvK]

Too much silly speculation floating around - some people need to run some solid tests to see if torps are doing anything weird.

There are plenty of mods which change torpedo stats. I know beefed them up quite a bit in Proportions mod.

First strike is one way for torps to have an advantage. There are several other risk factors that can tip the scales of a battle. If the ships start out in range of each other, then first shot is determined by who was stationary rather than moving to enter the combat, or failing that, a coin flip (in Gold; pre-Gold, it was by player number...).

Just in general though, doing more damage in the first exchange can sometimes tip the scales, because a hit on ECM or Sensors can effectively take a ship out of action, etc.

Another way is to give your ships "Max Firing Range" strategy, and then to give them only weapons with the same reload time, which is greater than 1. The result is that the ships will fire and then move away for a turn or two, which can result in avoiding getting hit by the enemy, or in partly damaged ships escaping destruction, or getting enemies with "target most damaged" to try to fire at them at excessive range (thus, missing, while full-strength ships are closer). If this succeeds (no guarantee, with the dodgy tac AI), then the torp ships may succeed in firing (or, firing and hitting) as often as their opponents do.

Against enemies with range-8 weapons especially (usually APB), range-6 weapons can also have an advantage if both sides have full-strength ECM and defensive-bonus armor, because it will be hard for either to hit at range-8, and +20% easier at range 6. Because SE4 to-hit is based on simplistic addition rather than multiplication (like real-universe probability), this can be much more than a 20% advantage, since if the chance to-hit is say, 20% at range 8, at range 6, the chance would be 40%, or twice as likely.

PvK

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Whoever moves into range first gets to fire first. With same ranged weapons (such as APB VII or so and whatever level of Torpedo hits range 8 (max range of all non-missile weapons)), it is the faster ships. With same speed and range, it is a crap shoot.

Haven't played unmodded in a while, Fryon?

Torps max out at range 6, as do several other DF weapons in the unmodded game (some also max at 5).

PvK

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Well that just makes APBs even more powerful.

Against enemies with range-8 weapons especially (usually APB), range-6 weapons can also have an advantage if both sides have full-strength ECM and defensive-bonus armor, because it will be hard for either to hit at range-8, and +20% easier at range 6. Because SE4 to-hit is based on simplistic addition rather than multiplication (like real-universe probability), this can be much more than a 20% advantage, since if the chance to-hit is say, 20% at range 8, at range 6, the chance would be 40%, or twice as likely

The problem with that is that in most battles, there are a lot of ships, and the range 8 weapons just allow ships in the back to fire, while the bulk of the ships are still up at close ranges (unless you use max range for some odd reason). Optimal range usually makes your ships move in close to fire anyways (especially with high enemy ECM values). They will fire and move away if they start close. Or just sit there if they are crowded by huge fleets. Those ships in the back don't hit often, but they hit more often than the enemey's rear ships that can't even attempt to fire. Fleet stacking is not to be underestimated.

[ November 11, 2003, 01:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]