Mod: New pretender: Deep Dagon

[Aezeal]

I'll admit perhaps I was trying to do too much with a single pretender

it's usually the case with modding.. most mods are overpowered or on the top of the balance so to say.. not much are underpowered.


I think your changes are nice and the graph good. PPLZ playing atlantis should give this one a thought.

Personally I'd say you should make a mid-high level summon of this guy too (lower stats of course) I think atlantis can use it

[chrispedersen]

Option B:

Cost 125
Size 6
Hit Points 260
Strength 32
Protection 16 + 2
Attack Skill 16
Defense Skill 8 - 2
Precision 8
Morale 30
Magic Resistance 18
Encumbrance 4
Move 1/6
Age 3000+(5000)
Leadership 20/20/20

Amphibious, Fear +2, ColdRes 100, PoisonRes 100, Darkvision 100

2 hands, head, body, feet, 2 misc

Dominion: 3
New Path Cost: 80
Weapons: swallow, claw


Compare to the worm: Area attack, better slots, better resistances, better hp, better fear.

No regen.


Seems about right.....

My suggestion if you want to keep magic would be you'd have to tone him down a lot in hp etc. Perhaps 95 hp with size around 4.
Its not just the magic paths - its the combination of paths. Earth / water are very strong bless paths.

Thematically, Fire/Water would fit well with your fire and cold resistance - but again strong bless paths.

Compare Monster Fish with PoD - one of the popular chassis, at the same point cost. You're proposing better paths than POD, AND more hitpoints, AND better expansion capability - capable of solo expansion on turn one with a high dominion boosting his hp by 26/candle as well as his damage.

So please don't take it like I'm raining on your parade - its a great job, and much better than I can do on graphics. I'd love to include him in my ABM Pretenders - but too strong still = )

[WaywardG]

Yeah, balancing can be a real pain. Makes me feel for the fine folk who have to do it for a living. I think I've done just about all I'm going to with this guy, so if anyone wants to make their own changes or include him in another mod, go for it. Thanks for all the input and compliments regarding the art, though I feel whoever made the stock monster fish sprite deserves most of the credit there. If I do more Dominions modding work in the future, I'll be sure to post it here. I'll still probably be lurking (in the deeps?), if anyone has anything else they want to add.

[Endoperez]

It's a great first try at modding. Creating new nation-spesific pretenders must be the easiest way to start, I remember doing that as my first project as well.

And yes, balancing is definitely the most difficult thing in modding.

[VedalkenBear]

Wayward: Why does the Deep Dagon have a Dominion of 1, while the (normal) Dagon have a Dominion of 4?

I think this version may be a bit 'overnerfed'.

[Aezeal]

Vedalken:
Probably since it was a suggestion from very smart people, his version had a higher dominion originally.

To continue my reply on your post I'm forced to say the following though: saying a unit is overnerfed compared to another just based on one stat is sort of silly. Most pretenders have a lower dominion than the Dagons 4 but still I see them used more.. is everyone using overnerfed pretenders or is there more to it.

To answer my own (pretty retorical) question: no most people actually play with the strongest pretenders available to them and often those do not have dominion 4.

How can that be you ask?? It is so because pretenders have a miriad of other statistics some of which are at least of equal importance, strenght and or usefullness. If you look closer at both pretenders you will probably notice that the Deep Dagon has several thinks going for it.. I will leave it for you to figure out which ones I'm aiming at since I would hate to be patronizing.

Greets,
Aezeal

hmmm was this really necessary? ah well...

[Aezeal]

another thing for Wayward : I would increase his leadership value though. I'm not sure if it's usually a fixed value but I think it usually is and pretty high at that. Fitting for a pretender I think. I greatly applaud your insight to be able to nerf your pretender a bit but on this I would give him a lil boost.

[Redeyes]

Why would Cold Resistance make more sense than Fire Resistance for a sea creature?
Water doesn't go below freezing (and ice floats, so the coldest "water" goes on top).

[VedalkenBear]

Aezeal: Mm. How wise you are, to know that you and others are intelligent.

As some people know here, I very rarely find any new content to be overly weak. Generally it is the reverse. I even noted earlier in this thread that the god (as it was then) probably was too powerful, considering its starting paths coupled with its Dominion and chassis. Since one was dealt with, I do not see why the others had to be reduced to the extent that they were. Also, the thematic source for the God (the original Dagon) shows that underwater 'monster' Gods don't necessarily have a lower initial Dominion than other Pretenders, like they almost always do on land.

Considering the above, I think that this Pretender should have a higher base Dominion than 1. Certainly, it may turn out that another balance may need to be found (I would think lowering its protection would be a good method).

[chrispedersen]

A few comments on dominion:

Thematically, I also noted the Dagon was Dom 4: The dominion rating of the DD - did not fit. However, with a water/earth bless and a Dom4 it was essentially begging for someone to run a double strong bless with this pretender.

The last version I suggest put the dominion at three- as the personality of the pretender was different than a dagon - a striker from the shadows. Flavor, perhaps.

I always had a problem that dragons were dom 1, as well. I can rationalize it as the ease with which they attract human followers .. but even so .....

Lastly, on the leadership score - I can see the dagon being a poor leader - as he has other fish to fry, so to speak. A super combatant a competent mage - but a dweller in the deeps where not much else lives.