A prioritized and hopefully realistic Wish List for 2.13

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
I must say, watching Ember make 3 troops go poof in a single attack is rather nifty, and Magebane certainly makes quick work of putting things to sleep, but in general, that's not enough for an SC to take out an entire army by itself.

On the flipside, some of these weapons are quite damaging and host nasty special effects on those hit, which makes them very useful when you're taking on only a single target, such as an opposing-force SC, where fatigue is not a serious problem.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
Unless, of course, he manages to kill or incapacitate his opponent using his more powerful unique weapon before this happens. You obviously haven't tried some of the nicer artifact weapons.

I must say, watching Ember make 3 troops go poof in a single attack is rather nifty, and Magebane certainly makes quick work of putting things to sleep, but in general, that's not enough for an SC to take out an entire army by itself. Well - when it's undead, 0 encumbrance, and has over 100 HPs, high armor, and is regenerating maybe.

Some of the other artifact weapons seem ... underwhelming though, compared to a Wraith blade or Blood Thorn (paired with a high strength).

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Much as I hate to agree, but it is true. I don't really want to cry "nerf lifedraiing weapons!", but I wouldn't mind something to be done with them. I mean - let's face it!

We all know that 90-95% of weapons used in competitive MP games are wraithswords/blootthorns/HellSwrod. It is fact of life, nobody can argue with that.

Sure, few unique artifacts, (which are con 8! vs Con4) are certanly better than Wraitsword.

You may also use one or two 1h weapon, if you want a sheid such as charcoal on SC, like lucky sword or quickswrord for special SC design. Andof course you don't use such weapon vs undead or lifeless forces. But that's it. Everything else is highly situational, while Wraitsword and L are bread and butter of any decent SC in veteran SC.

What about other 100 cool weapons? I used them all in SP. But in MP between professionals, it usually just not worth it. Everybody and they grandmother are runing around with wraitswords and bloodthrons.


Please understand me correctly. I don't think it has the highest priority. If it comes to nerf, I would much rather see clams nerfed, or make temples destractable by the order of enemy commander instead of auto-destruct as it isnow, in order to reduce madcastling. These are my main two hopes for the upcoming patch. To make lifedrainig weapons less prominent would be nice. Or buff up other weapons, however nerfing 3 weapons are much easer than buffing 100 others. But I'll not be too heartbroken if it'll not happen, although I wil be glad if it will.

Bottom line is - it's not that I hate lifedraining weapons, they are cool. But I would like to see all other nice weapons used as well much more often than they are being used now. (and please, don't pile me up with exapmples of single weapon uses, or some special anti-Sc situation when you want to use that dagger or this Flamerge. I know all this. But Wraithswords and its keens are still bread and butter by wide margin, and we all know it.)

[tinkthank]

I know too little about competetive MP between "professionals", as SB put it, and thus I am very very wary with the yell for the nerf stick.

However, CU seems to have a good point: Dom2 is most excellent for more than two reasons, but primarily in my eyes for these two reasons, both of which are inexorably intertwined with one another:
1. It is buckets of fun
2. There is no one single "must have" strat

(I think 1 is partly true because of 2)

Therefore, CU makes a good point: If something appears "must have", then it is dangerous to the very nature of Dom2. Norfleet (a professional along with SB and you others) claims it is a must have. (I dont use SCs, but I'm a dork, and surely I will lose in a competetive environment.)
(Btw: this logic cannot be used against so-called "clam hoarding" or pleas to change the Moloch: The Moloch, for instance, can still be used wonderfully without having his imps nerfed (but not only as an SC).

I still think that balance changes in a wish list need to be clarified and specified completely, otherwise you get a bigger problem (Ancient American Wisdom: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it").

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Bottom line is - it's not that I hate lifedraining weapons, they are cool. But I would like to see all other nice weapons used as well much more often than they are being used now.

That's because the other weapons tend to be specialized in purpose. Not all weapons are intended to be carried by SCs. Summer Swords, for instance, provide lots of supply, but are not weapons you would give to an SC to carry. Gatecleavers are great for busting your way into a fort, but, once again, are not really weapons you'd have an SC carry: You give this to some flunky to carry for when the opposition is dispatched. Elfbanes are not weapons you'd normally use unless your opponent is fielding a large number of mechanical mans....but fielding a large number of mechanical mans, which are lifeless and cannot be drained, *IS* the counter to lifedraining attacks - it makes these weapons useless.

Other weapons are great for giving to random flunky commanders, so that they can cast spells in battle...and not be sidetracked because they have nothing else to cast. Phoenix Rods, Drain Life Banners, all these are great tools to hand to a scout or Joe Ordinary commander.

A lifedrain weapon, on the other hand, is the obvious and natural weapon of choice for somebody who's going to be mixing it up in the thick of things with a load of ordinary units on his ***: The preferred weapon of the SC. However, not all SCs need to use this combo: You can get more punch out of, say, Bone Armor and a Sword of Swiftness, than you will out of simply slapping a Wraith Sword on somebody. It's just that these weapons don't gather as much press because you can't just slap them onto anything with decent combat stats and watch him go kill things.

Just because a weapon is specialized or intended for a purpose you don't use, doesn't mean it's worthless. There are only a few truly crappy weapons on the list, like the Knife of the Damned...which is intended to be given to a sacrificial lamb to die and give to somebody on the other side, obviously.

[Boron]

lifedrain seems really to be a must have in most fantasy games for fighters .
just look at diablo 2 . every fighter without at least 10% lifedrain and 5% manadrain was quite useless at least at higher levels .
in age of wonders 2 shadow magic lifedrain was very nice too and especially for heros very important .

i think it is a almost general fantasy game problem . but it just belongs to fantasy . vampires ... without lifedrain are very unstylish + unsexy .

in dominions 2 i have to little expierience yet . but as someone stated against lifeless creatures it is not working . how does this exactly work ?
do you still do damage but not refresh life or do you even do no damage ?

[Wendigo]

Lifedraining weapons are not a must have, they are just a simple answer to the need to plan for life & fatigue restoring in a SC, but you can get those through many other different ways.

In fact, in SC dueling I would rather class them as suboptimal, unless wielded by a *very* high strength critter.

They excel at mopping standard troops, but that's about it.

[ July 16, 2004, 09:46: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
in dominions 2 i have to little expierience yet . but as someone stated against lifeless creatures it is not working . how does this exactly work ?
do you still do damage but not refresh life or do you even do no damage ?

Damage is caused, but fatigue and health are not replenished.

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Lifedraining weapons are not a must have, they are just a simple answer to the need to plan for life & fatigue restoring in a SC, but you can get those through many other different ways.

This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

In fact, in SC dueling I would rather class them as suboptimal, unless wielded by a *very* high strength critter.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

[Wendigo]

On gaining regeneration & reinvigoration through other means:

This is true, although many more item slots may be required for this: To substitute for not using lifedrain, you need both reinvigoration in excess of the unit's modified encumberance rating, and you need a whackload of regeneration.

Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

In SC duelling, fights are typically short and brutal, so endurance in the form of perpetual reinvigoration is a nonissue. Of course, this just underscores the idea that tanks and tank-killers, are similar, yet have different requirements. A tank, being your typical SC, requires a weapon that is flexible and useful on the a variety of targets that it may encounter. A tank-killer, an anti-SC, only needs to be able to destroy tanks.

Indeed. Getting into the fight with no fatigue certainly helps (no penalties to att, deff & chance of armour piercing hit), but once you are hacking at each other it's mostly about att vs def, and damage yielded vs protection...and there are better weapons for that than the lifedraining ones, even at lower research levels.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Or no items slots at all, as you can gain both externally from spells, while using your slots for duelling gear.

Certainly this is viable, but oftentimes a good tank-killer is most likely to get his best hits in if he can strike before his opponent has raised a whackload of spell defenses of his own.

Plus if you're choosing external spells instead, well, regeneration comes from nature, the only reinvigoration option comes from Earth....which may or may not be enough, depending on his encumberances after armor and quickness are factored in. Lifedrain can also be had through external spells, which, helpfully, addresses both of these problems at once, so invoking external spells is still not really the answer: Lifedrain can be had for one spell, getting regeneration and reinvigoration requires two. You're simply trading off your limited 5 spell slots instead of your item slots, and lifedrain still requires fewer.

Of course, a pure anti-SC may simply opt to do without: After all, he doesn't need to be able to take out enemy armies, he just needs to be able to take out enemy SCs. After that, his mission is accomplished.

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
oftentimes a good tank-killer is most likely to get his best hits in if he can strike before his opponent has raised a whackload of spell defenses of his own.[/QB]

Different aproaches, a superior build (because of its specialization) is as viable as a first strike build, they just work differently.

You're simply trading off your limited 5 spell slots instead of your item slots, and lifedrain still requires fewer.
[/QB]

Not necessarily, as you can get those spells from other mages. It is my experience that a SC (or even a group of SCs!), do not stand a chance vs a small army consisting of a duellist SC plus a few supporting mages.

We seem to agree on all the rest, so I am edditing it out.