[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[tbontob]

Obviously, you need time to collect your thoughts.

After 1 AM here. See you tomorrow.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by tbontob:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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Originally posted by tbontob:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You edited your post. I guess you just clicked the wrong button.

Don't avoid the issue?

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I posted that right after you edited your post, and then edited in my response. You edited the Where? post while I was posting.

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Typical, the issue is not posting as you well know.

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Umm... I did post the response.

come on Fyron,

Get on topic!

Don't avoid it.

You are the one that got off topic in your response to my post. You have started arguing about things that my post did not address.

Obviously, you need time to collect your thoughts.

No, that would be you, not me. My thoughts are collected.

[ March 16, 2003, 08:03: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[raynor]

In keeping with the chess analogy from a different thread, can we consider the Last set of Posts between Imperator Fyron and tbontob a stalemate by way of repeated moves--er, Posts.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by raynor:
In keeping with the chess analogy from a different thread, can we consider the Last set of Posts between Imperator Fyron and tbontob a stalemate by way of repeated moves--er, Posts.

No. It is a stalemate because Tbontob started playing checkers in the middle.

[Mephisto]

I think many people (not their leaders...) are concerned because they just don't see how attacking the Iraq will bring peace to the middle east in the long run.
The second thing that people concern is the attitude of the US government: they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. And because the US government "knows" that it is right it will ignore the opinion of the rest of the world no matter what and even fabricate evidence to support it’s cause. Can't you see why people are so very concerned about this? No matter how small an evidence they fabricated, they have lost the morale high ground of being "right" and the rest of the world "wrong" about a war. They start to look like a bully making up things so they can hit their target.
If any government begins to fabricate evidence and dismiss the law to do what it thinks is "right", where will it stop?

[Thermodyne]

Iraq seems to think it will be war
_______________________________________

Iraq: Hussein Divides Country Into Military Districts
Baghdad; Washington, 16 March 2003 (RFE/RL) -- Iraq has put itself on a war footing as U.S. President George W. Bush tells the American people the country's military is ready to disarm Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein if need be.

In Baghdad yesterday, the Revolutionary Command Council issued a decree dividing Iraq into four military districts under Hussein to "repulse and destroy any foreign aggression," the official INA news agency reported.

Hussein's son, Qusay, was placed in charge of the regime's heartland of Baghdad and the president's hometown Tikrit.

Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid, was placed in charge of the key southern sector facing U.S. and British troops massed in Kuwait. Al-Majid is known as "Chemical Ali" for his role in the 1988 campaign against rebellious Kurds in northern Iraq in which thousands of Kurds died, many in chemical weapons attacks.

Hussein's deputy, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, was placed in command of the strategic northern region. The central Euphrates district, which includes the Shi'ite Muslim holy sites, was placed under Mazban Khader Hadi, a member of the ruling Revolutionary Command Council.

Saddam himself retained sole authority to order the use of surface-to-surface missiles and aviation resources, the decree said.

"Each command of a region is in charge of defense affairs within its geographic boundaries and to lead and use all the financial, human, party organization, the people and military division to confront any foreign aggression aimed at Iraq's sovereignty, independence, and security as well as maintaining internal security," the decree said.

Meanwhile, in his weekly radio address, Bush said he has little hope Iraq will disarm peacefully: "There is little reason to hope that Saddam Hussein will disarm. If force is required to disarm him, the American people can know that our armed forces have been given every tool and every resource to achieve victory."

Later today, Bush will meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar on the Azores islands. The three have been trying for weeks to build a nine-vote majority in the 15-nation Security Council for a resolution authorizing force against Iraq. But only one other council member, Bulgaria, has publicly backed them.

U.S. officials said the summit on the Portuguese islands is not a war council, but aimed at increasing pressure on Hussein. But British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said war now looked "much more probable."

The French foreign ministry issued a statement saying nothing justified force now. France, along with Germany and Russia, also issued a call for foreign ministers to convene a meeting of the Security Council on 18 March to discuss the Iraqi crisis.

Also yesterday, Baghdad invited the top weapons inspectors Hans Blix and Muhammad el-Baradei to visit as soon as possible to discuss outstanding disarmament issues. Blix said he would study the invitation.

In cities across the world, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets in what many saw as a final global protest against any U.S.-led war on Iraq.

Copyright (c) 2003. RFE/RL, Inc. Reprinted with the permission of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 1201 Connecticut Ave., N.W. Washington DC 20036. www.rferl.org

[Thermodyne]

And the world has a new problem. This one also gets laid at the feet of the French. I wonder if they will need a UN resolution to put their man back into power.

DATE=03/15/03

TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT

TITLE=CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC/UNREST (L-only)

NUMBER=2-300732

BYLINE=CHALLISS MCDONOUGH

DATELINE=ABIDJAN

CONTENT=

VOICED AT:

INTRO: Violence has broken out in the capital of the Central African Republic, in what appears to be a coup attempt. As V-O-A Correspondent Challiss McDonough reports from our West Africa bureau in Abidjan, gunmen have surrounded the president's palace and the airport.

TEXT: Reports from the capital, Bangui, say there was panic in the streets as automatic gunfire and artillery fire broke out Saturday afternoon, and truckloads of armed men were seen driving through the city.

Some of the heaviest shooting was heard near the presidential residence, which appeared to be surrounded. Heavy fighting was also heard near the airport. Both are now reported to be under rebel control.

The national radio station went off the air, and rebel fighters were seen near the offices of the state television station.

The violence erupted while President Ange-Felix Patasse was out of the country, attending a summit in Niger.

The French news agency, A-F-P, says his plane turned around after it was shot at as it tried to land at the Bangui airport. A-F-P says he has now landed in Cameroon, but there is no independent confirmation of that report.

Witnesses say the gunmen appear to be rebels loyal to former military chief General Francois Bozize, who led a coup attempt in October. The general fled to neighboring Chad when he failed to gain control of the government.

His fighters still held about half the country until recently, when the government claimed to have re-taken most of its territory.

President Patasse has survived a string of coup attempts since his election in 1993. His army is weak, and he has largely come to depend upon foreign troops to put down rebellion.

The most recent coup attempt in October was foiled by troops from Libya and rebel fighters from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The Libyan troops have since left the country, replaced by a Central African peacekeeping force. (signed)

NEB/CEM/PT

[Thermodyne]

It would seem that Iraqis wish to leave their country at a rate that exceeds the rest of the world. This indicates to me that things are not as the press portrays them. The press shows poor people looking for food or selling their household belongings. This report would indicate that the middle and upper class are also leaving. Poor people don’t jet to Europe and hire a solicitor to file am asylum claim.
__________________________________________

DATE=3/15/2003

TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT

TITLE=UNHCR/ASYLUM (L-ONLY)

NUMBER=2-300725

BYLINE=LISA SCHLEIN

DATELINE=GENEVA

CONTENT=

VOICED AT:

INTRO: A new study by the United Nations refugee agency, U-N-H-C-R, shows that Iraqis comprised the largest group of asylum seekers in industrialized countries Last year, replacing Afghans who now have fallen to fifth place. Lisa Schlein reports from Geneva.

TEXT: The U-N-H-C-R study shows the number of people who applied for asylum in industrialized countries Last year dropped by nearly five-and-one-half percent, compared with the year before. The U-N refugee agency attributes this decline in large part to the dramatic drop in the number of Afghans seeking asylum.

Nearly two-million Afghan refugees have gone home since the fall of the Taleban in late 2001. Most returned from neighboring Pakistan and Iran.

U-N-H-C-R spokesman Rupert Colville says the Afghans have been replaced by Iraqis at the top of the list of asylum-seekers coming to industrialized countries. He says they are followed by those coming from former Yugoslavia, Turkey and China.

/// COLVILLE ACT ///

In terms of percentage changes, Zimbabweans showed the biggest increase in 2002. They were up by 83 percent on 2001 with a total of eight-thousand-600 applications. The biggest decreases after the Afghans were Sierra Leoneans, who were down 43 percent.

/// END ACT ///

/// OPT /// The new statistics show more than 580-thousand asylum claims from all nationalities were lodged in 37 industrialized countries in 2002. This is nearly 35-thousand fewer than the year before.

The report notes this number is small when compared with some 13-million refugees and asylum seekers throughout the world, most of whom are found in developing countries. /// END OPT ///

Mr. Colville says the largest recipients of asylum seekers among the industrialized countries Last year were the United Kingdom, followed by the United States, Germany, France and Austria.

/// COLVILLE 2nd ACT ///

The top three asylum seeker Groups coming to the U-K -- Iraqis, Zimbabweans and Afghans -- all three of which are countries with strong historical links to Britain. /// OPT /// Zimbabwe was a British colony, Iraq was a British protectorate and Afghanistan had close links with British India. Between them, these three Groups account for more than a quarter of all asylum seekers that went to the U-K Last year. /// END OPT ///

/// END ACT ///

The U-N-H-C-R study notes the number of people seeking asylum in central European countries has decreased for the first time since 1994. It says countries such as the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia have tightened their asylum rules, as they prepare to join the European Union next year. (Signed)

NEB/LS/ALW/TW

[Thermodyne]

I have seen a lot of Posts in this thread and I respect most of the positions. One of the problems I have noticed is that many people rely on CNN, MSNBC, and other large Entertainment services to provide facts for their statements. These are poor sources, the show the things that create Ratings and color stories to make them more news worthy. For months now they have put great strength in the position that the inspector take during their reports to the UN. Has anyone of you seen a CNN story about the failure of inspections in the past. The UN has never completed a successful program. I would like to suggest that those of you who have a real interest start checking the raw data, the reports that CNN and MSNBC edit and add unrelated video to. Also check the reports that are written by respectable sources. Sure, it takes time to read them, but you will learn a lot from them. The other day I posted a report writhen by the State Dept. during the Clinton years. It was damning then and is still on the valid list today. But not one reply about it? Some of you should read it. Here is a link to a paper done by a think tank. The worldly among you will recognize the name, and realize that this group has impeccable credentials, unlike some of the fly by night tanks that have been quoted to date. We all have systems with net access, go out and look around. There is a lot of raw data to be had.

http://www.csis.org/burke/iraqishellgame.pdf

Inspections will never solve the problem in Iraq, and every member of the Security Council knows it.

[raynor]

Personally, I am *hoping* that all members of the Security Council are aware of evidence for going to war. But as long as there isn't war, they benefit from profitable trade relations with Iraq. In the event of war, I *hope* the US can quickly enough find hard, solid evidence of WMD. It that is the case, then the impact on the world of the US going it alone *may* not be so severe.

On the other hand, if the US invades Iraq, and a month later still hasn't found any evidence of WMD, then I worry which direction the world opinion will turn.

Of course, I think that there is and already has been found evidence of WMD. It is interesting how a week or two before a possible war Iraq is revealing this and that bomb, UAV, etc. But this is still pretty minor compared to the THOUSANDS of GALLONS of VX gas we thinks Iraq manufactured. If the US invasion finds ->THAT<-, then I hope that will sway world opinion back towards the US.

[ March 16, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: raynor ]