Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by earcaraxe

I wanted to clear that up if we are arguing about "unplayable" or "not strong enough".

Actually only Ghoul was arguing either unplayable, or not strong enough, and he really didn't say much beyond that. Executor was (and still is?) arguing that Ashdod is impossible to balance with Adonim because it was and still is massively OP, and I was arguing against that. There was also a side argument on whether or not some of the nerfs against Ashdod were justified, with the understanding that no, the nerfs don't make Ashdod weak, but neither would the lack of them make Ashdod OP, and so CBM didn't really have any business making those changes for thematic reasons.

Edit: somewhat lost in the shuffle was how Seren can be made useable. Which is related as Anakite armor being the worst heavy armor in the game is one reason nobody would recruit them, as cheap as they are.

[rdonj]

Dude, shangrila, for as much as you claim executor was making personal attacks it is hard not to read a large amount of hostility from you in what you're directing at him. You are making this excessively personal. Can we back this up a couple of steps?

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

There was also a side argument on whether or not some of the nerfs against Ashdod were justified, with the understanding that no, the nerfs don't make Ashdod weak, but neither would the lack of them make Ashdod OP, and so CBM didn't really have any business making those changes for thematic reasons.

I'll agree with the first part, that the nerfs don't make them weak - but not with the second. Ashdod was originally nerfed because it was viewed as OP. I understand you may not view it that way but the fact is it was commonly banned from games. And it's most certainly CBM's business to address that since I view CBM as being MP focused (at least with regards to balance decisions). Really, the question is do you want the nation to be playable or banned half the time?

As for the nerfs, they mostly had to do with gold cost. I'd agree some of those are now too high, in particular the Talmai Elder at 600 gold. I'd also agree with Executor's comment that it wouldn't be out of line to reduce the cost of zamzummite's.

But none of the changes were unthematic, unless you consider the theme to be "IW created an OP nation deliberately." But in that case I'd say balance trumps "theme" - at least in a MP setting.

[ghoul31]

Ashdod is the only nation that can't get 0 enc sacreds. So nations with 0 enc sacreds can just slaughter them in the early game

I am the only one here who has actually played ashdod in 1.92, so I'm the only one that can comment on it.


Why don't some of you actually play them before you keep spouting nonsense?

but of course none of you will, and will just keep spouting nonsense with no real experience to back you up.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by earcaraxe

in the early game he was conquering indies with adons using a super-bless E10W6F6N4

That's the most ridiculously expensive and stupid bless I've ever seen. W6 for an extra 3 def on an SC chassis?!? So that’s 170 points to negate 1.5 attacks. Awesome value!! And then another 170 points to get an extra 3 attack on a unit that doesn't struggle to hit.

I really love it when players take an absolutely atrocious build for a game, get trashed in 20 turns, and then complain about how rubbish a nation and/or mod is based on the game they just played. And never once looking at their own failings in both design and play style, or even think about blaming themselves in any way for a single moment. The other great thing about Ghoul's performance in that game is that Ghoul is well known for always having the worst Dominion and Research in every game he plays, but even so...

(these were the llamascores the turn Ghoul went AI as Ashdod)

LlamaServer Scores, Game_of_Dorian turn 21

Research
Nation Research
Independents 0
Ermor 655
Pythium 305
Mictlan 757
Abysia 1472
Shinuyama 1191
Ashdod 36
Eriu 1524

How is it possible to have done just 36 points of research by turn 21? I mean seriously, how the hell is that even possible. You hire a mage turn 1, set it to research, and that single mage alone will have generated 100rp by turn 21. So WTF?!? To have done just 36rp you would literally have to be sending out every mage you ever recruit every turn. Christ any and every nation in the game is unplayable if you trash your scales to take a pointless bless, on top of intentionally doing no research at all ever. If anyone plays like this then they seriously need to go back to SP games and learn the very basics of how to play.


And I just tried a quick and messy test game as Ashdod. By turn 12 I had 19 provinces, 3 forts and however many expansion armies I wanted. I took a Dormant Master Druid with A1W1E9N4 (you don't need more bless than that) and Dom5 O3P1H4G0Mis2M1, with 54 points remaining (so points left for more scales or Dom or Magic Div). I don't see why I wouldn't get that in a MP game if I wanted (note that's a big if!). I expanded no problem with almost no losses (Indy 5) using a mix of small armies of Gileadites backed with Indy archers when needed.

Ashdod is in no way weak at all, and in most cases have all the options available now that they did before. If you can't get a decent game with Ashdod then there's something wrong with your play. Sure they can and likely will be in danger of ganging, due to players knowing about Ashdod's mid-late game potential. But I can't see why they are more or less likely to be ganged than the other top nations in the game. As that is the danger (or should be the danger in a sensible game) of playing top tier nations.

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Originally Posted by Ragnarok-X

Since we cant alter the consciousness of the community, at least parts of 1. (nerfstick) should be reversed.

Please don't tell me you have any important responsibilities in life, because that is one of the stupidest bits of logic I have even seen. "We've gone a long way to solving the problem, but people are unaware of what we've done, and how we've tried addressing the problem. Therefore we should undo all the fixes we made, just accept the problem, and never try to fix it ever again."

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Originally Posted by Memento

Hi.

Can we potentially add 25% blood on mictlan priests? Currently, with the elimination of SDR and tlahuepulchi cost increase, the only effective way to blood hunt as mictlan is to use their cap only mages - and since Mictlan is all about blood it seems to be pretty ineffective.
Just my 2 cents

I agree completely. Removing SDR's has made Mictlan UNPLAYABLE! and they have been completely overnerfed as a result of the CBM changes. Mictlan were one of the weakest nations in the game to begin with, and I can not see them ever winning a game again, or even getting to turn 20, unless their priests get B3 minimum. As using cap mages to bloodhunt is an exploit, and it's impossible for Mictlan to summon any hunters who are efficient or cheap. Therefore the nation is now worthless IMO (which is the correct opinion). Plus removing hammers has not helped them in any way. Indeed it has made them far worse compared to other nations.

[Executor]

Shangrila00,
You refuse to even really hear anything I have to say and make any attempt to have a civil debate about it. For whatever reason, which I won't get into, you have taken this far too personally and continue to be excessively hostile towards me, and not only me (I have no peoblem with that btw). But yet in the end, it's me that's making the personal attacks...

I think I'll refrain from making any comments regarding anything on this forum from now on as dealing with the likes of you makes that rather unpleasant.
In the future, please don't address me and do not attempt to join my games.

Calahan, I finally get why you stopped posting anything or trying to be of help.

[Ragnarok-X]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Please don't tell me you have any important responsibilities in life, because that is one of the stupidest bits of logic I have even seen. "We've gone a long way to solving the problem, but people are unaware of what we've done, and how we've tried addressing the problem. Therefore we should undo all the fixes we made, just accept the problem, and never try to fix it ever again."

Chill. I didnt say roll it back, i said it was overnerfed and i suggestion to UNDO the overnerf.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by ghoul31

Ashdod is the only nation that can't get 0 enc sacreds. So nations with 0 enc sacreds can just slaughter them in the early game

I am the only one here who has actually played ashdod in 1.92, so I'm the only one that can comment on it.


Why don't some of you actually play them before you keep spouting nonsense?

but of course none of you will, and will just keep spouting nonsense with no real experience to back you up.

Ghoul you've never played any nation in the game, simply because you have no idea how to play the game at all. Therefore any opinion you have on anything is meaningless. And as evidence of your inability to play, I present your above bless for Ashdod, and your complete failure to compete in any game you've ever played past the mid game (when 0enc super giants can no longer survive against magic).

This happens in every game you play (and you know it does) because you have no concept of the power curve, you never do research, you never build several strong mage bases, you always over-commit to every war you fight (top tip, vet players often use less than 50% of their forces to win their first war, and also try to win their first war without using any mages). With most of these points being the reason you keep getting ganged. ie. it has othing to do with players beign "****ing cowards" as you keep claiming. As the reason is they scout your lands, notice you have no troops or mages anywhere in sight. As you've committed everything you have, and ever have had, into just one war. Then they check the graphs and note you are bottom on research, so have no way of defending yourself with mages. they then add 1+1 together, and get the answer that they can take over your entire empire very quickly and very easily. So why the hell shouldn't they do it? (top tip, if your first war lasts more than 20 turns, you've already lost the game. And if you win your first, and your second lasts longer than 10 turns, then again you've lost the game. Quick wars are essential to staying on the power curve)

If you think how you play the game right now is how the game should be played, then I can assure you that you will not only never win a game ever, but you will not even get close to winning a game ever. As you are trying to play in a way that makes failure a 100% certainty. In chess terms (since it's the worlds most widely played strategy game) you are moving your queen out on move two of every game you play, trying to capture as many pawns as you can with her, and then crying like a girl when you lose your queen or you get checkmated (due to your opponents superior piece development), and then blaming either the game or your opponent for your loss. Rather than facing the truth which is that you have no idea at all how chess is really played. And until you accept you have no idea, accept you have to change how you play, and start learning the basics of playing properly, then you will never improve regardless of how many games you play, as it is impossible to improve with that play style. You could play 24/7 for 10 years and be no better than when you started.

But I couldn't care less if your Dom play improves at all, and you'll just ignore all this advice like you have done every single time anyone has tried helping you play better. And several players have tried helping you in the past, but you refuse to accept any criticism of your play because you always convice yourself that something else is the sole reason for you losing (****ing cowards!!!). As at the end of the day all I care about is that people realise how clueless you are as a player, and as such automatically ignore any assessment you make about a nation/mod/whatever.

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Originally Posted by Executor

Calahan, I finally get why you stopped posting anything or trying to be of help.

Glad to see you've finally seen the light. Maybe you should set up a sig. to commemorate it, like the one I have over on Dom3mods.

"Don't ever try to help pig-headed douche bags, as it's never worth the trouble. Since some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen"

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Originally Posted by Ragnarok-X

Chill. I didnt say roll it back, i said it was overnerfed and i suggestion to UNDO the overnerf.

I'll chill when people stop posting rubbish. Which by recent evidence suggests never.

[llamabeast]

I hope you won't actually stop posting Executor, as your comments and discussion are much appreciated and I read them carefully. I may be fairly quiet on here but I read the forums constantly (I don't post so much since I'm generally either at work or on my phone).

[llamabeast]

And actually I generally appreciate your comments too Shangrila. I have no idea what happened on here in the last couple of days!!