Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?

[Slynky]

Thinking back over my replies, I realize I'm irritated now and I'm ready to withdraw from the game in protest of the insinuation I'm as guilty as my opponent when I broke no rules. But I've learned to walk around a bit and then see if I feel the same way afterwards before finalizing a decision like that.

I'll be back later.

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
If you read and agree to something and sign it, the law doesn't care if you forgot. Your just WRONG. Simple as that. So, I don't care if he forgot or did it on purpose. He made a mistake that affected the game. Tell the cop you forgot what the speed limit was.

Very true. If it were something other then mines, something that couldn't be disallowed by setting and was simply a case of a pure gentlemans agreement from the start that he forgot about, I wuold be totally in agreement with you. But I can't get past the fact that two things happened that he had absolutly no control over, the setting wasn't turned off by the game owner, and you didn't bring it up as soon as you noticed it.

You can put on my tombstone "Never assume a gentleman's agreement". That's the only inviolable law of PBW game settings in my book. I keep bringing up the possibility of him simply forgetting that you agreed to no mines, but a reasonable argument could be made that once the game owner forgot to disable them that item went out the window, unless you guys brought it to each others attention after the fact and made a gentlemans agreement. He could have researched construction to get fighters or troops, saw as you did that mines were there and not wanted to bring it up for the same reason you didn't, to avoid giving away information abot uhis research and strategies. So then the only difference is that you assumed that since mines were enabled your game defaulted to a gentlmans agreement not to use mines and he assumed that since mines were enabled your game defaulted to using mines. In that case you both made reasonable, but conflicting assumptions.

I know you would probably say to this, "But he agreed not to use mines." but actually he didn't. What he agreed to do was play a game in which mines were not enabled. He didn't agree to a gentlmans agreement not to use them. When it became clear that mines were in the game but you didn't bring up the point, he could have easily assumed that meant you knew about it and were planning on using them too.

I see your perspective and I don't discount it Slynky. I merely see it from a slightly different angle. That's why I am simply saying that restarting seems the most fair in my opinion. Restarting damages you both in that you lose current progress, and you have to adjust your strategy to regain the element of suprise. But to the extent that it damages you both, it does so equally. And it's the only solution that doesn't cause unrecoverable damage to either of you.

[Alneyan]

Slynky said:
Thinking back over my replies, I realize I'm irritated now and I'm ready to withdraw from the game in protest of the insinuation I'm as guilty as my opponent when I broke no rules. But I've learned to walk around a bit and then see if I feel the same way afterwards before finalizing a decision like that.

Note that Geo is only speaking for himself, and his opinions do not necessarily reflect those of the management, Shrapnel Games, etc. (You all know the disclaimer by rote)

I'm waiting to hear from Rathar before making any decision; Rathar may make it unnecessary for me to make any decision. So, I would suggest that you start glowering/cursing/hurling various items at me when said decision has been made.

[Slynky]

Very true. If it were something other then mines, something that couldn't be disallowed by setting and was simply a case of a pure gentleman’s agreement from the start that he forgot about, I would be totally in agreement with you. But I can't get past the fact that two things happened that he had absolutely no control over, the setting wasn't turned off by the game owner, and you didn't bring it up as soon as you noticed it.

But what he DID have control over was remembering the settings that were discussed and agreed upon in the forum. But excuses have been made for that below, I see.

but a reasonable argument could be made that once the game owner forgot to disable them that item went out the window, unless you guys brought it to each others attention after the fact and made a gentleman’s agreement.

I disagree. And I would present another analogy: I have two daughters. They fight constantly. SO I tell them there is a new rule in the house…NO MORE HITTING each other! And to emphasize my concern, I tell them I’ll place a big sign in their room as a reminder. But, I forget to do so. A week later, one coms crying because she got hit and when questioning the other and referencing the new rule, I’m told the sign was never put up, so she thought it was OK to hit. Well, you know and I know that excuse will never fly with any parent. Just as I didn’t think for one moment the guy who left his wallet on the counter wouldn’t have a right to be upset if I took it (after all, he had left it there…couldn’t that have been interpreted as giving it away?). Give me a break! As a person somehow plagued with having ruins left on in their games, I can tell you no one ever saw an artifact and decided “Well, it must be OK after all!” Someone always said something as soon as it was discovered. I might also point out that saying so didn’t reveal any unnecessary information about their game plans, either. Finally, I might also point out that noticing the discrepancy in your scenario above, he chose not to ask to be sure using mines wasn’t a problem. But, then that might have tipped his hand in a revealing manner, would it not? Apparently it’s OK for him to not want to tip his hand and to not ask for a clarification.

I know you would probably say to this, "But he agreed not to use mines." but actually he didn't. What he agreed to do was play a game in which mines were not enabled. He didn't agree to a gentleman’s agreement not to use them. When it became clear that mines were in the game but you didn't bring up the point, he could have easily assumed that meant you knew about it and were planning on using them too.

This must be the kind of logic and reasoning behind OJ being innocent (rollseyes).

I see your perspective and I don't discount it Slynky. I merely see it from a slightly different angle. That's why I am simply saying that restarting seems the most fair in my opinion. Restarting damages you both in that you lose current progress, and you have to adjust your strategy to regain the element of surprise. But to the extent that it damages you both, it does so equally. And it's the only solution that doesn't cause unrecoverable damage to either of you.

I’m not restarting (and for the following reasons) As a matter of fact, I’m withdrawing:

(1) I hate the beginning part of the game. It’s boring. 20 turns of researching the same thing every game. (except mines, of course).
(2) When 2 players meet and the deficiencies in the way you have designed your empire as well as the deficiencies in the way you have conducted your play become apparent, but you get a chance to start the game again, you get a second chance react to the superior empire design and to, to give one of his errors away, research and place PD weapons on ships so that one doesn’t rely on PPB IVs and Vs to shoot down fighters. You also learn the vulnerability of forward-placed colonies without any defenses and make adjustments there. One may also consider fighters now as a more viable tool (although any player worth his salt knows they are just a “temporary speedbump” *cough, cough*). He should also realize he is behind on research (seeing my ships outfitted with ECM/Sensor 2’s while he has nothing I’ve seen yet).
(3) And speaking of research, 50,000 points should be a drop in the bucket at turn 35 as it’s less than half a turns research to me (I have over 100,000). If 50,000 is a burden to him, then he has (had) much bigger problems than he realizes. He just now has LCs coming off and I’m producing cruisers. I’m well on my way to 100 colonies in Rock only and have been chipping away at another colony tech with leftover from my other research gains. So, if 50,000 points is a problem for him, it’s worse than he thinks!
(4) To be blunt about it, I have reservations about whether or not he forgot about the settings we agreed upon because, it’s quite contradictory of a person who says mines are a temporary speed bump and then researches them so late in the game. I’d also say it’s peculiar that (giving more of my game away since it doesn’t matter now) it took him 13-15 turns AFTER I glassed his first colony to decide to research mines. If he really thought mines were now legal because the research item appeared and he assumed that was an override to our agreed settings, why wait so late? And, why haven’t I ran into any mined warpholes with my stealth ships that have been running all around behind his lines watching all his ship movements? And if mines were legal, did he not think it strange he had never wandered into any from me? Finally, the mines I encountered were at his most forwardly-paced colony and most vulnerable. Almost as if he decided he needed a loophole to try and hold on to it. If mines are legal, it’s one of the highest priorities I have in research…I don’t begin research on them 15 turns after meeting the enemy and having colonies glassed. So, I’m not saying my opponent deliberately and knowingly violated the settings we agreed upon because I don’t have any proof. All I have is reservations enough to wonder if he simply forgot mines weren’t allowed and decided he needed the temporary speedbumps since he couldn’t defend his forward colonies in a conventional way (or not).
(5) Considering I’m currently winning the game (it would appear to me), restarting only adds another benefit to him.
(6) Since I didn’t want to play on a random roll of the dice in the first place (wanted the Balance Mod), I’m not real keen on putting the dice in the galactic cup for another roll. Of course, it would be probably be a good thing for him.

A game is supposed to be fun. When it isn’t fun (because of surrounding events), then my time is better spent with some other form of recreation. This match isn’t fun any more. I’ll just withdraw and somebody else can be moved to the top.

[Fyron]

(1) I hate the beginning part of the game. It’s boring. 20 turns of researching the same thing every game. (except mines, of course).

You could create a little mod that has this boring research that everyone does the same for the first 20 turns completed for a medium tech start. This could then be used for future KOTH games. Maybe lots of people will agree and it will become common setting, like Balance Mod maps? Heck, just post what you want done and I'll make it for you.

[Rathar]

My word!

I remembered that we had said no mines and in fact was very surprised to see that mines were available as an option but since that option was open to us for some mysterious reason I thought that perhaps I had forgotten something or a mistake had been made.

I must admit that I did not think of not using a weapon at hand. Instead I figured that the mistake affected us both equally. I.E. We wanted a game with no mines but now we have one so lets just make the best of it and use 'em.

I researched em long ago, just didn't use them except on a planet or three as I think they are mostly a total waste of my time (I'd rather have ships for example) due to the ease with which they get bypassed. (edit: I think that the planets you glassed had all just been built ["hmm here's a nice place to live, aieeeeeee.. blam!] so no mines there!)

At any rate I am sorry you thought that I would not use em due to our initial agreement. I assumed (a dangerous thing!) that you would come to the same realization I had about the setup mistake made and go "Oh well, it got screwed up, no use crying over spilled milk" or at least spoke with me and said "damn, this got screwed up. How shall we react?". Again, another assumption which has proven disastrously wrong.

At any rate, I have hardly any mines anywhere (although this was about to change) and all can be destroyed with ease.

If it is still possible I would love to continue the game. Can we roll it back a turn or two? I don't feel that anything in terms of strategy would be overly harmed.

One small bit of criticism. In future, talk to me, don't just take your ball and go home. You may find that your opponent has useful things to say regarding the situation and that far from being a fiendish breaker of the rules I was just as confused as you are/were and trying to make the best of things.

Having fun in this one, you are clearly a master at this but I am by no means out of it yet. I have only begun to fight!

Rathar

Edit for this bit..

I don't give a damn about the lost 70k research. If thats the margin of victory then so be it. I would rather play than quibble over peanuts. Besides, it gives me something to point to and say "Thats why I lost! Not my lack of skill/power/intellect/etc!"

[geoschmo]

My appologies to all concerned. My opinion was not requested or required, and yet for some reason I felt the urge to give it. Obviously I did so in a manner that was less than tactful as I turned a simple misunderstanding, which didn't involve me to begin with into something quite unpleasant. I'm not exactly sure how we got from A to B to C, but I feel quite sure that if all the parties (those that actually have a stake in the matter that is, not myself this time) could somehow manage to get back to A you all could actually resolve the matter to everyones satisfaction.

[douglas]

I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.

[Alneyan]

douglas said:
I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.

I thought about that, but I don't believe it would change much: if you click on something to see what it allows, it still means you have an interest in the tech area. That, and most seasoned players would not do the right-clicking in the first place, since they should know their tech tree by rote.

[Slynky]

douglas said:
I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.

Thanks for the info. Once again, it's obvious I'm not very good at this game as I didn't know this, nor did I know mines could be detonated or that there is an an Edit button that shows up if the design is a prototype.

Also, you've proven what I felt when I decided to pull out of the game...that enough doubt had been cast about my handling of the "mine error" as to have people think I f----- up when I don't feel I did. Additionally, statements like "Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment" diminishes any win I might manage to eek out and casts a shadow over my ability as the victor because, apparently, poor Rathar is taking the big hit because of the (apparent) mistake I made in not mentioning it to him when I discovered it.

As I said earlier, it's supposed to be recreation. I recently said it to Geo when he completed a game that was very entertaining. When my precious little time for entertainment gets drowned out by situations like these, it's time to quit. When I have to suck down Tums to quiet my stomach down, it's time to quit. When I can't focus on my job because of a match, it's time to quit...and I haven't been worth a crap this afternoon at work.

According to the rules:

The current King must accept the challenge of the current #1 contender, or he abdicates. If the King abdicates, the #1 contender is crowned the new King of the hill. If either player abandons the game at any time, he forfeits and the other player becomes or retains the title of K.O.T.H..

I might also suggest someone augment the rules in KotH to address problems of this nature as, at least in my experience, game setting mistakes are not that uncommon. (of course, with all the mistakes I am prone to, I may have missed it so I apologize up front).

Apology accepted, Geo. Unfortunately, my heart isn't in game any longer. I know how you love to debate.