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  #351  
Old March 18th, 2003, 03:24 PM

Aloofi Aloofi is offline
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Link: Bush and Cheney

[ March 18, 2003, 13:25: Message edited by: Aloofi ]
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  #352  
Old March 18th, 2003, 03:29 PM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.



WASHINGTON, DC—Against strenuous objections from his advisors, President Bush began a hunger strike Monday to protest human-rights abuses in Nepal, vowing to subsist solely on water and vitamin supplements until "the twin clouds of violence and oppression are lifted from the land."


Above: Bush sits in front of the White House on Day Two of the hunger strike.
"I can no longer stand idly by while the gentle, peace-loving Nepalese people are made to suffer," said Bush, a longtime admirer of Nepalese culture. "This hunger strike will send a strong message to the government of Nepal and the insurgent Maoist rebels that their suppression of freedom and subjugation of the innocent is not going unnoticed."

Since 1991, Nepal has been locked in a bloody struggle between its constitutional monarchy and the Communist Party of Nepal (CPN), a Maoist guerrilla group seeking to overthrow the oft-oppressive regime. Thousands of innocent civilians have lost their lives in the crossfire.

After years of human-rights abuses by both the government and the CPN, Bush felt it was necessary to take action.

"In recent months, there has been a sharp increase in the use of deadly force on both sides," said Bush, seated on a mat in the Rose Garden. "There have been numerous reports of civilians being killed as a reprisal for the death of military police or of CPN army personnel. Things are bad and they're only getting worse. Something had to be done."
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  #353  
Old March 18th, 2003, 03:34 PM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.



WASHINGTON, DC—At a Pentagon press conference Monday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld touted the military's upcoming Gulf War II: The Vengeance as "even better than the original."


Above: Donald Rumsfeld debriefs reporters on the upcoming Gulf War sequel, scheduled to hit Iraq March 22.
"If you thought the first one was good, just wait until you see the sequel," Rumsfeld said of Gulf War II, scheduled to hit Iraqi theaters of operation March 22. "In the original, as you no doubt know, we defeat Saddam Hussein, only to let him slip away at the very end. This time, we're going back in to take out the trash."

Rumsfeld said the soon-to-be-unleashed war will feature special effects beyond anything seen in the original.

"Gulf War I was done 11 years ago, and war-making technology has advanced tremendously since then," Rumsfeld said. "From the guns to the planes to the missile-guidance systems, what you'll see in this one puts the original Gulf War to shame."

"The budget for Gulf War II: The Vengeance is somewhere in the neighborhood of $85 billion," Rumsfeld continued. "And every penny of it is up there on your screen."

Waged in 1991 at a cost of $61 billion, the first Gulf War was a major hit, making household names out of stars Colin Powell, Norman Schwarzkopf, and Wolf Blitzer. Asked who would star in the sequel, General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was coy.

"I don't want to give away too much, but let's just say you're likely to see a few familiar faces pop up," Myers said. "I will say that the son of one of the key characters in the first one, back then just a boy, is now all grown up and ready to take his rightful place at the head of the alliance."



Myers did confirm that the plot revolves around the Rebel forces' efforts to capture arch-nemesis Hussein, whom they believe is building a weapon of mass destruction somewhere deep within the mysterious and forbidding No-Fly Zone.


Above: A publicity still from Gulf War II.
"Obviously, Saddam will be back," Myers said. "He's the perfect villain: ruthless, efficient, and sinister. It would be an affront to all the fans not to include him. Beyond that, what's going to happen is anybody's guess. One thing, though, is guaranteed: We're going to have more action, more danger, and definitely more kill power than the first time around."

"We've already started preliminary shooting," Myers said, "and so far, what we've got is unbelievable."

In addition to a major PR push, Gulf War II will be accompanied by a major merchandising campaign. Pentagon has secured the commitment of Topps for a series of cards supporting the effort. It has also brokered a first-look deal with CNN, guaranteeing the network full access to the front lines, as well as first crack at interviewing the men and women behind the scenes. The Pentagon has also signed Dan Rather to a two-cry deal.

In the 11 years since the original Gulf War, few conflicts have come close to matching the level of support and press attention generated by that operation.

"We were disappointed by our numbers in Bosnia," Rumsfeld said. "That particular conflict played primarily to an art-house crowd. Your mainstream audiences didn't connect with the complexities of the centuries-old ethnic clash you had going there. But this time, we feel we've got something very accessible that will play in Peoria. I mean, how can you go wrong with an 'Axis of Evil'?"

Though Gulf War II does not open fire for another two weeks, it has screened for select audiences in Los Angeles. Ain't It Cool News, the popular website run by Harry Knowles, recently leaked an advance review of the conflict.

"The battle sequences are even better than Black Hawk Down," Knowles wrote. "And Afghan leader Hamid Karzai, while only given a little action, exudes a Tarantino cool."

Pentagon officials, meanwhile, are already thinking about a third installment.

"There's no reason this Iraq thing can't be a franchise for us like those wars with Germany or the Communists used to be," Rumsfeld said. "The public loves it, the soldiers love it, the media love it. And even if the U.S. wins at the end of the second one, there are still plenty of possibilities for a third: Saddam could be destroyed, only to be replaced by an even greater evil. Then, of course, there's the prequel set in the Stone Age, the era we bomb Iraq back to at the end of the third one. As far as we're concerned, this thing is just getting started."
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  #354  
Old March 18th, 2003, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Quote:
Originally posted by tesco samoa:

can america deliver a good peace.
Good question. I guess the obvious answer would be to see what's happening in Afghanistan. I attempted to do this briefly the other day but it was tough to find. I guess it's not really news worthy now.
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  #355  
Old March 18th, 2003, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Quote:
I guess the obvious answer would be to see what's happening in Afghanistan. I attempted to do this briefly the other day but it was tough to find. I guess it's not really news worthy now.
I found this:

http://specials.politinfo.com/Latest...ebuilding.html

haven't really looked through it but it looks about right.
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  #356  
Old March 18th, 2003, 06:01 PM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

classic cnn headline

World braces as deadline looms
Terror alert level raised; March Madness may be delayed
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  #357  
Old March 18th, 2003, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Aloofi:

Those are amazing "pictures". Did you do them yourself? Just Adobe with a lot of tender loving care? I can't believe how seamless the G.I. dubbya looks, even the right shadows and everything!
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  #358  
Old March 18th, 2003, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

“Can America deliver a good peace?” Very good question Tesco. But one that only time can answer. The only thing we can do is look at history, and hope to develop a scale against which to measure the chances.

A quick look brings a few prime indicators to light; economic development seems to be a good marker. Developed countries recover more quickly than undeveloped ones. Also the Education of the population seems to have some importance. On the other hand, religious hatred and tribalism seem to prevent recovery and the building of nations that have a sound respect for basic human rights.

Iraq has a good level of education, along with a fair level of industrial development. But they also suffer from religious zealots and tribalism. The trump card is oil. With oil they can finance a strong recovery, and make their first gains in the area of living standards for the common man. Happy people are more apt to work for the stabilization of the government, rather than against it. I think that the model that was used in Japan can be adapted to work in Iraq. Take away the ego of one man, and it was a very good plan.

I think Iraq must remain as one state; to partition it would destabilize the region. Also instead of worrying about which sect will have power, they should form a coalition right from the start. All Iraqi’s not actually in positions of great authority should have amnesty. And any that are going to be punished, should receive it swiftly. The one compelling rule should be to always move forward. This of course rules out much involvement by the UN. They take years to do what can be done in weeks.

Personally, I think that the current Army of Iraq should be retained in a reformed entity. They will be well suited for maintaining order, US troops will not. Also, US forces should be withdrawn to specific bases ASAP. There should be a strong presence, but not a highly visible one. The Iraqi people need to build their own government based on acceptable standards already set by the UN.

Lastly, I do believe that America and her allies should create a PAX Americana/Allies in Iraq. Those who were not against Saddam should be frozen out of the post war revitalization of Iraq. It is time for the west to abandon the colonial ideas and aging ways of empire. We must accept the new nations as equals, not clients.

As a side bar I would like to address the “what about all the other places and other dictators” point that has been brought up. Three things determine the level of our involvement. Strategic considerations, spheres of influence, and public opinion. Let’s take Nepal for example. The west could have taken the Chicoms to task and expelled them from Nepal. But at what cost? Nepal would be rubble, and in all likelihood, several cities would be people free zones right now. Glassed over by fusion fires. Would that have served the people of Nepal? I don’t think so. Also, history tells us that they are a breakaway republic that was part of China in the past. Who has the valid claim? Does a successful revolt guarantee unchallenged independence? How for back do we apply modern law? An awful lot of questions and danger to be found in this problem, and for what gain? Unless Nepal finds linkage to another world problem, they will remain part of China so long as the Chicoms choose to hold them.

The point here is that each situation has its own set of risks and benefits, that in and of themselves have no linkage. To merely try to use their weight in numbers as a plank in your position has very little merit. It is not unlike the kid, who when caught red handed, rats out his peers in an effort to lesson the punishment that is about to be applied. To say that the US is wrong for only addressing one of the world’s problems is not sporting. The fact is, that we are addressing several of them at this time, who will step forward and address another? France? Belgium? Canada? There are plenty to go around. And 50 years of talking has not found a solution yet.
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  #359  
Old March 18th, 2003, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

Who here supports the President? I do, and why I do is simple. I feel that if we leave Saddam alone he will continue his efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction. That in turn he would give or sell these weapons to others terrorist along with training his own terrorist to use them against us.

That if he obtained the ability, then built a nuke, that he would use the device to blackmail the rest of the world into letting him do as he pleased in the middle east.

He has already stated many times that he has no weapons of mass destruction, yet he just gave the order to his troops to arm weapons with chemical warheads, and boasted that if the Americans invade Bagdad, he would kill all the people rather than allow them to live without him.

Ask yourself what he ment by that? How would he commit mass extermination of his own people? Ya he has no weapons of mass destruction, and Bill Clinton did not have sex with the fat chick either.
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  #360  
Old March 18th, 2003, 06:57 PM

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Default Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

I believe that Robin Cook's resignation speech should be read. I post it here.

Robin Cook's resignation speech:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/h...cs/2859431.stm

This is the first time for 20 years that I have addressed the House
from the back benches. I must confess that I had forgotten how much
better the view is from here.

None of those 20 years were more enjoyable or more rewarding than
the past two, in which I have had the immense privilege of serving
this House as Leader of the House, which were made all the more
enjoyable, Mr Speaker, by the opportunity of working closely with
you. It was frequently the necessity for me as Leader of the House
to talk my way out of accusations that a statement had been preceded
by a press interview.

On this occasion I can say with complete confidence that no press
interview has been given before this statement. I have chosen to
address the House first on why I cannot support a war without
international agreement or domestic support.

The present Prime Minister is the most successful leader of the
Labour party in my lifetime.

I hope that he will continue to be the leader of our party, and I
hope that he will continue to be successful. I have no sympathy
with, and I will give no comfort to, those who want to use this
crisis to displace him. I applaud the heroic efforts that the prime
minister has made in trying to secure a second resolution.

I do not think that anybody could have done better than the foreign
secretary in working to get support for a second resolution within
the Security Council.

But the very intensity of those attempts underlines how important it
was to succeed.

Now that those attempts have failed, we cannot pretend that getting
a second resolution was of no importance.

France has been at the receiving end of bucket loads of commentary
in recent days. It is not France alone that wants more time for
inspections. Germany wants more time for inspections; Russia wants
more time for inspections; indeed, at no time have we signed up even
the minimum necessary to carry a second resolution.

We delude ourselves if we think that the degree of international
hostility is all the result of President Chirac.

The reality is that Britain is being asked to embark on a war
without agreement in any of the international bodies of which we are
a leading partner - not NATO, not the European Union and, now, not
the Security Council.

To end up in such diplomatic weakness is a serious reverse.

Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition
against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever
have imagined possible.

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that
led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition. The
US can afford to go it alone, but Britain is not a superpower. Our
interests are best protected not by unilateral action but by
multilateral agreement and a world order governed by rules.

Yet tonight the international partnerships most important to us are
weakened: the European Union is divided; the Security Council is in
stalemate.

Those are heavy casualties of a war in which a shot has yet to be
fired. I have heard some parallels between military action in these
circumstances and the military action that we took in Kosovo. There
was no doubt about the multilateral support that we had for the
action that we took in Kosovo. It was supported by NATO; it was
supported by the European Union; it was supported by every single
one of the seven neighbours in the region. France and Germany were
our active allies.

It is precisely because we have none of that support in this case
that it was all the more important to get agreement in the Security
Council as the Last hope of demonstrating international agreement.
The legal basis for our action in Kosovo was the need to respond to
an urgent and compelling humanitarian crisis.

Our difficulty in getting support this time is that neither the
international community nor the British public is persuaded that
there is an urgent and compelling reason for this military action in
Iraq. The threshold for war should always be high.

None of us can predict the death toll of civilians from the
forthcoming bombardment of Iraq, but the US warning of a bombing
campaign that will "shock and awe" makes it likely that casualties
will be numbered at least in the thousands.

I am confident that British servicemen and women will acquit
themselves with professionalism and with courage. I hope that they
all come back. I hope that Saddam, even now, will quit Baghdad and
avert war, but it is false to argue that only those who support war
support our troops.

It is entirely legitimate to support our troops while seeking an
alternative to the conflict that will put those troops at risk. Nor
is it fair to accuse those of us who want longer for inspections of
not having an alternative strategy.

For four years as foreign secretary I was partly responsible for the
western strategy of containment. Over the past decade that strategy
destroyed more weapons than in the Gulf war, dismantled Iraq's
nuclear weapons programme and halted Saddam's medium and long-range
missiles programmes.

Iraq's military strength is now less than half its size than at the
time of the Last Gulf war. Ironically, it is only because Iraq's
military forces are so weak that we can even contemplate its
invasion. Some advocates of conflict claim that Saddam's forces are
so weak, so demoralised and so badly equipped that the war will be
over in a few days.

We cannot base our military strategy on the assumption that Saddam
is weak and at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim
that he is a threat. Iraq probably has no weapons of mass
destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term - namely a
credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city
target.

It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical
munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies
sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved
chemical and munitions factories. Why is it now so urgent that we
should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has
been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create? Why is it
necessary to resort to war this week, while Saddam's ambition to
complete his weapons programme is blocked by the presence of UN
inspectors?

Only a couple of weeks ago, Hans Blix told the Security Council that
the key remaining disarmament tasks could be completed within
months. I have heard it said that Iraq has had not months but 12
years in which to complete disarmament, and that our patience is
exhausted. Yet it is more than 30 years since resolution 242 called
on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

We do not express the same impatience with the persistent refusal of
Israel to comply.

I welcome the strong personal commitment that the prime minister has
given to middle east peace, but Britain's positive role in the
middle east does not redress the strong sense of injustice
throughout the Muslim world at what it sees as one rule for the
allies of the US and another rule for the rest. Nor is our
credibility helped by the appearance that our partners in Washington
are less interested in disarmament than they are in regime change in
Iraq.

That explains why any evidence that inspections may be showing
progress is greeted in Washington not with satisfaction but with
consternation: it reduces the case for war.

What has come to trouble me most over past weeks is the suspicion
that if the hanging chads in Florida had gone the other way and Al
Gore had been elected, we would not now be about to commit British
troops. The longer that I have served in this place, the greater the
respect I have for the good sense and collective wisdom of the
British people.

On Iraq, I believe that the prevailing mood of the British people is
sound. They do not doubt that Saddam is a brutal dictator, but they
are not persuaded that he is a clear and present danger to Britain.
They want inspections to be given a chance, and they suspect that
they are being pushed too quickly into conflict by a US
Administration with an agenda of its own. Above all, they are uneasy
at Britain going out on a limb on a military adventure without a
broader international coalition and against the hostility of many of
our traditional allies.

From the start of the present crisis, I have insisted, as Leader of
the House, on the right of this place to vote on whether Britain
should go to war. It has been a favourite theme of commentators that
this House no longer occupies a central role in British politics.
Nothing could better demonstrate that they are wrong than for this
House to stop the commitment of troops in a war that has neither
international agreement nor domestic support.

I intend to join those tomorrow night who will vote against military
action now. It is for that reason, and for that reason alone, and
with a heavy heart, that I resign from the government.
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